prog. therm. and heat pump questions

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You are taking all the fun out of trolling a troll.
On the second day of christmas my rocket gave to me two paper bags and a heat pump that was too big
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Couldnt bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
Obviously blotto, as always.
No surprise that the best its ever been able to manage is HVAC ape.
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Three blottos, 2 paper bags and a ..............
Maybe on the fith day i will get "five viable systems", even tho I would gladly accept just one.
Man I was looking at some ozzie weather data and average July monthly lows were 6 to 9C in areas with average July highs around 15C. So you should be able to viably size something up there as easy as in Bermuda.
Maybe with some long underwear and passive solar you could frugally get by without any heat. Perhaps a central fire place and burn some kangaroo chips or those pesky rabbit droppings. It seems to get dry in summer with some high temperatures so maybe your swamp cooler works.
Have you considered adding a mixing box to the inlet of your swamp cooler yet, that would allow from 100% outside air to 100% return air. I was thinking that you could switch it to 100% return air in the heating mode, cycle the water on and off to keep humidity up, plus use that high volume of air flow to equalize the temperatures through out the house from the booster heat pump or central fire place.
Have you ever heated or cooled anything besides your food and your CPU?
So come on, summarize one viable system then you can throw in another nose rubbing on me.
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Couldnt bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
Obviously blotto, as always.
No surprise that the best its ever been able to manage is HVAC ape.
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Rocket, I almost get the feeling that you are not having any fun with this role reversal of the troll getting trolled.
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Couldnt bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
Obviously blotto, as always.
No surprise that the best its ever been able to manage is HVAC ape.
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Rod Speed wrote:

If you shut the booster off before the central area gets up to temp and rely on the primary system then bringing it up to temperature then, this central area catches up quick compared to the rest of the house. Not much heat from that booster trickling into the rooms in that time frame.
Maybe the central area gets back 4 out of 5 degrees in one half hour, and in another hour, the central area warms up the last degree. Primary system is off. No heat to the rooms. So you really need to think about your controls and where exactly to put that primary stat.
Rooms are no where close to warming up. Only way to warm up rooms is to over heat the central area. So nice orange, warm up the core and who cares about the rooms, but we need an apple.
Strips will warm the whole place up. The ductless booster can't without overheating the 'core'.
So maybe go back to the dual ducted systems with back draft dampers and the swamp cooler with it own ductwork and tell me it is viable. Or you could still explore the ductless spit in each room too. :)
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Wrong. The primary system which keeps the house at a uniform temp when setback isnt used keeps doing that fine when you use anything to get the central area back off setback.
Doesnt matter if thats a ductless split system, solar, a wood stove, or even a furnace etc.

Complete pig ignorant drivel.

No it aint. Thats why you set the stat on the ductless split system to a bit below the normal temp that the primary stat is set to.
The primary system has enough capacity to maintain the temps properly without setback, the only problem is that it needs to use the strips to come back off setback quickly enough. The secondary system JUST replaces the strips and is a lot cheaper to run than the strips.

Wrong, as always. Same heat to the rooms as you get without setback being used.

No you dont, whatever works fine with no setback will still work fine with setback and some system to replace the strips when coming back off setback.

Thanks for that completey superfluous proof that you have never ever had a fucking clue about the basics, and why the best you have ever managed is drunken HVAC ape.

Thanks for that completey superfluous proof that you have never ever had a fucking clue about the basics, and why the best you have ever managed is drunken HVAC ape.
Reams of pathetic attempt at a troll that any 2 year old could leave for dead flushed where it belongs.
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Rod Speed wrote:

Okay, the setback period ends, the primary system is running steady trying to bring the whole house back up to temperature. Maybe has to try and bring the whole house up by 5 degrees.
But a second system only serving in the central area also turns on.
So perhaps in one half hours time, the primary system has brought the whole house temperature up by a degree and the secondary system has brought up the central area by another 3 degrees.
The secondary system cycles off, and the primary system runs for another hour has fianlly recovered the 5 degrees of set back. This was done by the primary system supplying two degrees of reheat and the secondary system providing 3 degrees of reheat.
But now, you need to think about where that primary system thermostat is.
If that primary system thermostat is in the central area, it is satisified. That means the rest of the house gets no more heat until the central area cools off. So the rooms have recovered two degrees of heat (actually probably a slight amount more) and the primary system is off.
So you really need to think, of a better way to control the primary system it is a doomed system to have the stat in the central area. You also need to think about how to get extra heat above what the primary system can normally supply to the rooms to assist them in recovery.

Hey could be an electric heater in that room, will not work as well as the strips. Solar will help after your scheme fails, it would warm up the east rooms anyways.

When the primary system is running and the central area has recovered, the average return air temperature to the primary system will elevate slightly. This results in a slightly elevated supply temperature to the cool rooms and marginally helps them recover.

Maybe read above and other posts and you will finally see the light. I feel bad beating you up here.

Try it one more time grasshopper
You set the stat on the ductless split system lower than the primary system. So the central area was set back to 65F. The primary stat is set for 70F when setback ends and the ductless split stat is set for 69F when setback ends.
So at the end of the setback period, the room is 65F and that just happens to be lower than the setting of the primary system stat and the booster system stat. Guess what, both systems run.
So the primary system puts a portion of its heat output to the central area and the remainder to the rest of the house and the ductless system puts its entire heat output in the central area.
The heat output of two systems to the central area, elevates the temperature area of the central area much faster than in the rooms.
So by the time the ductless system has switched off, the central area is now 69F and the remainder of the house maybe 66F.
The primary system keeps running and it raisws the central area by another degree without the help of the ductless system and the central area is now 70F, and the primary systems TURNS OFF.
In the same time period, the rooms have also been heated by an additional degree and they are now at 67F. But the primary system is OFF, until the central area cools off and the primary system comes back on. But the rooms cool off a little bit too.
So you are not going to recover the room temperature with any success with the ductless split in the central area only.

The rooms will not recover with the auxiliary heat source in the central area.

The central area being warmed up does not help the rooms much, maybe a 4 to 8 percent heat boost to the rooms above what the primary system would normally supply.

Strips will warm up the whole place-- thats an apple
The booster in the central area will warm up mainly the central area, that is the pathetic orange. The primary system has warmed up the rooms as much as it can. The rooms do not benefit much from the central booster system.
If you elevate the temperature in the central area with the booster system, then it will help the rooms recover, but it is just a stupid idea.

I think you should drop the 'fucking clue about the basics' from you repettoire, it makes you look the most foolish of them all.
Read this one over a few times grasshoopper and think.
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No it doesnt, it hasnt got the central area up to the normal temp, stupid.

Wrong again, the new central temp is distributed to the other rooms by the secondary system and the whole system gets back to the normal temp as fast as the secondary system can get it back.

Wrong, as always.

Nope.
Wrong, it circulates the normal temp air from the central area to the other rooms while the central area is recovering from the setback. It just isnt adding much heat to that circulated air.
The WHOLE HOUSE will come back off the setback at a rate which is determined by how quickly the secondary system can provide the heat required to come off the setback.

The WHOLE HOUSE comes back off the setback because the central air is still circulated by the primary system, just like it is when no setback is used.

No it isnt.

That wont give a uniform temp in the house with no setback used, stupid.

Nope, that comes from the secondary system, circulated by the primary system.

Well enough.

The primary system has to be able to handle the inevitable that the rooms on the sunny side will get solar and the rooms on the other side wont, stupid.

Lot more than slightly because its the central area, stupid.

The primary system keeps the temperature uniform, just like it does with no setback used, stupid.
Reams of your pathetic excuse for a troll flushed where it belongs.
No wonder the best you have ever been able to manage is drunken unemployable HVAC ape.
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Rod Speed wrote:

You are setting the secondary system lower than the primary system, so the secondary system cylces off first.

The new central temp, that is approaching 70F is distributed to the other rooms by the ductless secondary system. Hey that sure works. 70F air to a cold room teleported magically ought to just recover great. Anyone with enough brains to cash a welfare cheque can't be that stupid, you are just trying to steal the fishing rod from me.

Well I guess you could run the fan steady when the primary thermostat was satisfied, the room temps will slightly rise and this helps cool down the central area to the point that the primary system comes back on. But the problem is this is a mickey mouse amount of heat and will be at a lower rate than what the room loses due to the outdoor ambient.
Then the primary system comes on central area hits 70 and it shuts off again, repeats over and over until finally, until long after everyone froze their ass off in the shower, went to work, the outdoor ambinet rises, the sun starts shining and the house finally recovers.
The central booster is worse than Zeno's paradox or is it Xeno? You got a dead dog rocket.

The secondary system by your own description is set to shut off before the primary system does. So you have recovered the temperature in the central area. Not doing much of anything in the rooms tho.

I'll tell you what, if you want a piping hot wood stove or the fireplace in the central area and you crank up the heat in that central area, then by running the fan of a 'primary system' you are going to get some heat into the rooms. The central area is going to be quite warm for this to happen.
So maybe you have some scrap wood or dried up kangaroo dung to burn and get some free heat and an elevated temp in the central area hey, you have proven you can circulate air and warm up rooms. You want to get the same elevated temperature using a ductless heat pump in a central area and you are using more power than a heat strip.
Really if you have enough brains to fill out a form to apply for welfare, how can you even think this.
Man oh man, I thought I was trolling the troll. Now the fish is fighting back. I think I am just going to have to reel it in and club it now.

I will translate it for you then. Your set back scheme does not work so they freeze their asses of in the morning. However after the sun finally rises the east side of the house may recover.

Sure can be a lot more if you crank up the secondary system to get it up to 80 in the central area. You are trying too hard to get that fishing rod back.

Try a code system
assign numeric values to strings such as "primary", "uniform", "pig" etc, then use a random number generator. Write a little program to convert the random numbers back to strings and you have more sensible sounding responses.
If you can't access a random number generator maybe do like the old 'numbers' gambling system. A good source of numbers to use and later convert to strings could be the cheque numbers on your welfare cheques.
You spell with the Queen's English down there right?

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ONLY when its got back to the normal temp.

Just a type, by the primary system, stupid.

Dont need to, there's a reason the secondary thermostat is set a little below the normal temp, stupid.

Taint gunna happen, because the primary system has been distributing the increase temp in the central area right thru the time when the secondary system is coming back off setback.

Wrong, as always.

Complete pig ignorant drivel. If that was so, the system wouldnt be able to maintain temps properly without setback stupid.

Wrong, as always. Its thermostat is set a bit higher than the one on the secondary system so it will continue to distribute the central temp to the other rooms, just like it did right thru the time coming off setback.

Wrong, as always. The primary system will be distributing that to the other rooms just like it does with no setback stupid.

Wrong again when coming off setback.
Reams of your pathetic attempt at a troll flushed where it belongs.
No wonder the best you have ever been able to manage is drunken unemployable HVAC ape.
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Rod Speed wrote:

See without clearly summarizing what you are trying to do, you can keep up this three card monte. At least it expands your vocabulary.
You are already setting the secondary system thermostat lower than the primary system thermostat, so the secondary system cylces off before it reaches the temperature set point of the primary system.
The primary system then brings the central area up to temperature then the heat shuts off otherwise you are overheating the central area.

You are not quite coherent here. At least you did not repeat your last mistake saying a ductless split system is distributing heat through out the house. You took your eyes off of the cards and confused yourself, too funny there rocket.

And by that reason, the secondary system never brings the central area up to temperature. It stops short of doing so, and forces the primary system to finally bring up the central area to temperature.
All the secondary system has done, has reduced the run time of the primary system as the central area warms back up. The other rooms cannot recover by your scheme.
You know this, it is just in your mind, you are fooling yourself in thinking that as long as you keep coming back with this drivel, you do not look like an idiot.
Kind of like a fat chick in tight jeans asking "Do these jeans make my ass look fat?" You truthfully answer NO as the jeans are not making her look fat because she already is fat. But hearing that "NO" she then fools her self into thinking she is a hottie and struts her stuff in Public.
If the 'chick' term confuses you, substitue the term "shelia" mate.

Well your reasoning would work if the central area was very hot, but then that harpoons you one more time.

You already mentioned minimal heat, maybe you did not like the disney reference

Hey you can have a primary system as big as you want, but when its thermostat says it is warm, it shuts off. So I gave you a hint before about motorized dampers on the primary supplies to the central area, just that it creates additional expense and more problems.
Just work it all out and summarize the system. Hey all the power to you, come on give me one of those nose rubbings you have been bragging about. Geez man, I have even conceded a dry subtropical climate and you cannot do it. Does your mother still wipe your ass for you too?

Well clarify the the set points of the two systems to make your case then.
The primary system runs, heats the entire home and then shuts off early as the central area recovers faster than the rest of the house because of your stupid booster. So you can overheat the central area and continue to add heat to the rooms to. You will end up using more heat and energy than the strips unfortunately.
I already showed you how to work out what the return temperature going into the heat pump will be, a simple weighted average of the temperatures of the central area and those of the rooms.
The supply temp to the rooms has to be about 25 degrees warmer than the room to maintain temperature. If the primary system cycles off the heat, but the fan keeps running, the elevated return temperature of the central area only causes a return temperature to the heat pump to be a couple degrees warmer than the room air temperatures (which have not yet recovered). So the constant circulation cannot supply enough heat to even keep up with the heat loss of the rooms, so the rooms start cooling off as soon as the primary heat system is off.

Hey put a mini-split in each room and sure that will work. But you only have one in the central area rocket.
I think I should promote you from rocket to Appollo. Hey give up now and you will be Appollo 13, keep going and earn the title Appollo 1.

If there was no setback at all, and you actually knew how to design a duct and heating system, then with the primary stat in the central area, the primary system should be able to maintain the house at a fairly uniform temperature especially at night.
The air flow to each room incuding the central area, is more or less sufficient to maintain each room at the desired temperature.
So when you set the system back and then try to recover just using the primary system, the temperatures start coming back to roughly the same level at a similar rate. Never exact but close enough.
So now you are turning on a secondary system that just serves the central area, and there is no longer heat distirbution properly proportioned in the home, the central area recovers faster.
You are still stupid enough to have a single stat for the primary system in the central area, so the central area warms up to temperature and the primary system stops supplying heat. Keeping the fan running does not help your case at all. It is like the fat sheila wearing vertical stripes, she sitll is fat.

When no setback is used, you have the primary system properly distributing the heat. When you recover with just the primary system you still have the primary system properly distributing heat. When you recover with heat strips, the extra heat of the strips is properly distributed through out the house, the house then recovovers quickly and uniformly.
Any recovery scheme needs to properly proportion the 'surplus heat' to bring the entire house up to a uniform temperature. Your ductless secondary system can't do this. So maybe try tearing down all the partition walls and making the house 'open concept.' Or if it was new construction, use the savings of not having to build partition walls and pay for the booster heat pump.
Other wise you need a ducted secondary system to do that and that harpoons your whole plan as you do not know how to make the duct system work without it being another expense that will never pay for itself.
Or of course you could also just put a little booster in each room as well.
Maybe tinker with the fact of modifying the swamp cooler so that its fan and duct work can give you even additional circulation (plus a kW of fan/motor heat) and you could actually prove that you have been able to recover on time, just a far cry from being viable. You need to add a mixing box to get that swamp cooler just to re-circulate return air.
It is a shame an easy climate such as yours and you cannot even prove that you can recover temperature.

Ream, dream, drink some Jim Beam. You might as well you cannot even come up with a Goldberg solution.

Please, I told you it is Mr. Ape Sir. When you figure out how you can recover from a night time setback with a heat pump in a subtropical climate then you may revert back to addressing me as lowly drunk ape.
On the sixth day of christmas appollo gave to me....................
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Couldnt bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
None of the rest of your pathetic excuse for a troll worth bothering with, all flushed where it belongs.
No surprise that the best you have ever managed is drunken unemployable HVAC ape.
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Rod Speed wrote:our vocabulary.

Another admission of failure from Mr. Welfare.
--
To reply via e-mail please delete 1 c from paccbell

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Rod Speed wrote:

You are setting the secondary system lower than the primary system, so the secondary system cylces off first.

The new central temp, that is approaching 70F is distributed to the other rooms by the ductless secondary system. Hey that sure works. 70F air to a cold room teleported magically ought to just recover great. Anyone with enough brains to cash a welfare cheque can't be that stupid, you are just trying to steal the fishing rod from me.

Well I guess you could run the fan steady when the primary thermostat was satisfied, the room temps will slightly rise and this helps cool down the central area to the point that the primary system comes back on. But the problem is this is a mickey mouse amount of heat and will be at a lower rate than what the room loses due to the outdoor ambient.
Then the primary system comes on central area hits 70 and it shuts off again, repeats over and over until finally, until long after everyone froze their ass off in the shower, went to work, the outdoor ambinet rises, the sun starts shining and the house finally recovers.
The central booster is worse than Zeno's paradox or is it Xeno? You got a dead dog rocket.

The secondary system by your own description is set to shut off before the primary system does. So you have recovered the temperature in the central area. Not doing much of anything in the rooms tho.

I'll tell you what, if you want a piping hot wood stove or the fireplace in the central area and you crank up the heat in that central area, then by running the fan of a 'primary system' you are going to get some heat into the rooms. The central area is going to be quite warm for this to happen.
So maybe you have some scrap wood or dried up kangaroo dung to burn and get some free heat and an elevated temp in the central area hey, you have proven you can circulate air and warm up rooms. You want to get the same elevated temperature using a ductless heat pump in a central area and you are using more power than a heat strip.
Really if you have enough brains to fill out a form to apply for welfare, how can you even think this.
Man oh man, I thought I was trolling the troll. Now the fish is fighting back. I think I am just going to have to reel it in and club it now.

I will translate it for you then. Your set back scheme does not work so they freeze their asses of in the morning. However after the sun finally rises the east side of the house may recover.

Sure can be a lot more if you crank up the secondary system to get it up to 80 in the central area. You are trying too hard to get that fishing rod back.

Try a code system
assign numeric values to strings such as "primary", "uniform", "pig" etc, then use a random number generator. Write a little program to convert the random numbers back to strings and you have more sensible sounding responses.
If you can't access a random number generator maybe do like the old 'numbers' gambling system. A good source of numbers to use and later convert to strings could be the cheque numbers on your welfare cheques.
You spell with the Queen's English down there right?

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You want some other system besides the strips, then get some other system inline with the air coming off the primary system.
Or put a booster unit in each room
Or put another ducted system in, either figure out how to make it share the same ductwork or put in its own ductwork.
Any way you look at it, the central booster is a dog. And that dog don't hunt.
And in the furture, it's Mr. Ape Sir to you punk.
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Sure, you could put the ductless split system output there.
It'll work fine in the central area tho.

No need.

Stupid approach.

Wrong, as always.
No surprise that you are a drunken unemployable HVAC ape.
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Sure, you could put the ductless split system output there.
It'll work fine in the central area tho.

No need.

Stupid approach.

Wrong, as always.
And your original pig ignorant claim that setback cant work with heat pumps clearly always was just plain pig ignorant drivel.
No surprise that you are a drunken unemployable HVAC ape.
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Abby Normal wrote:

You seem to be enjoying this :) I think he gets that he's cornered, but he's a fighter. He might run out and bite your ankle though if you keep tormenting him. The fight or flight response reduces to only the fight response when there is nowhere to run. A cornered animal would never contemplate defeat, it isn't in their nature. :)
hvacrmedic
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