Predictions on all the freon leaked out and need AC system replaced

[hrhofmann]

Trader 4 summerized my feelings/understanding of refrigeration physics perfectly.

[Stormin Mormon]

CY: Reading that again, not sure what I was thinking.

CY: Because the lowside and the atmosphere will equal each other through the leak hole.

The low pressure reading when it's

CY: In that case, you're saying something different than myself.

CY: See above. And please stop adding lines to the posts. I've been taking the added lines back out. And it's tedius.

CY: Just takes longer.

CY: Did you ask? I'm talking about after a period of time when the system has leaked out as much as it's going to.

CY: Eventually is long enough to leak out as much as it's going to.

CY: And finally you got your wish. If you or someone asks, I'll explain why a high side leak can and eventually does result in low side below zero (which is one of my diagnostic techniques)

[Robert Green]

Of course Trader's right. Then again, look who he's arguing with. Frankly I'd rather go outside and try to teach a fencepost quantum physics. The results might end up being the same. But it's a free country and if Trader wants to try to educate the chronically uninformed, that's his right.

"Summerized" might be the typo of the month since the discussion is concerning air conditioners. (-:

[trader_4]

So why don't you take the opportunity to correct it and say you now agree. Or else explain why you don't agree.

We're just talking past each other here. The low side and the atmosphere can equal each other regardless of where the small leak is on the low side or the high side. A small leak's effect on the system is for it to lose refrigerant. Whether that loss is via a small leak on the high side, the low side, or by someone deliberately removing some of the refrigerant, the readings you see on the gauges when the system is running are the same. It's how much refrigerant that was lost that determines what you read, not how it left the system.

Well, yes. I'm saying what Mark, Clare and hrho also told you. That you can't tell where a small leak is, whether it's on the high side, the low side, or someone just removed refrigerant while you weren't looking. All will produce the same gauge readings with the system running. For the leak to show up on the gauges, it would have to me a large leak, not one where the system loses some refrigerant over the course of many days, like the one discussed.

You didn't explain anything above. I'm not adding lines, GG is.

You haven't explained anything and your short 3 word answers don't help. What takes longer? What does that have to do with anything? Sure, it takes longer for refrigerant to be lost through a small leak. It has nothing to do with your claim:

"I returned a couple days later, and put a low side gage on. With the compressor running, the gage read about 8 inches mercury. If it was a low side leak, it would have read zero. "

No, again, this is what you claimed:

" I returned a couple days later, and put a low side gage on. With the compressor running, the gage read about 8 inches mercury. If it was a low side leak, it would have read zero. "

And we're still waiting for the explanation of the physics behind it.

Now you're just playing silly games. That means the system would be empty and you were not even talking about an empty system. And it would be empty regardless of the leak being on the high or the low side. And if you put gauges on, you still can't tell with any reading whether the small leak that eventually resulted in total refrigerant loss was on the high side or the low side.

Again, that is very different from what you claimed:

"I returned a couple days later, and put a low side gage on. With the compressor running, the gage read about 8 inches mercury. If it was a low side leak, it would have read zero. "

Are you just screwing with us, or don't you realize that?

[Stormin Mormon]

Any chance of a post less than 100 lines? This one has 310.

[Stormin Mormon]

CY: Will reread that in the morning.

CY: Actually, a high side leak and a low side leak will provide very different results.

CY: And when the system finishes leaking, the high or low side leaks will provide different readings.

I'll delete the rest, it's more than 100 or so lines.

[Stormin Mormon]

OK, well, then I'll reply to about 100 lines of message, and delete the rest. No worries.

[Stormin Mormon]

CY: And after the many days, you'd get the high or low leak behaviour.

CY:And after a few days, the slow leak system behaves just like I wrote.

CY: When there is a high side leak, eventually the pressure of the high size equalizes with the atmosphere (zero). The compressor is trying to push refrigerant out of the low side, which (low) side goes below atmospheric pressure. OTOH, if the low side was leaking, the low side would equalize with atmospheric, and the low gage would read zero.

CY: Who says I wasn't talking about an empty system? When I got back to the HO place a couple days after a test charge, the system was pretty much empty. I returned to find near zero PSI with the compressor off. I've explained to you how I can tell low versus high side leak, by the low side pressure while the system is running. I'm wondering if you're just a time waster.

CY: No difference at all. I stand by what I wrote. I can't help it if you don't understand what I write.

[clare]

This might be true if you leave the guageset on and keep the compressor running long enough, but it is foolishness, and very hard on the compressor, to run the empty and open system that long - after all, with no refrigerant, there is no circulation of the lubricant in the system. If it is a low side leak you will also be drawing in moisture from the atmosphere. You might actually be ablee to do it on a commercial refrigerationsystem, but low pressure cut-off switches on most A/C systems prevent the system from running when empty - for good reason.

Let's just say I'm glad you are not my A/C tech.

[Stormin Mormon]

Did you miss the part where I wrote that I came back a couple days later? As in "been out of town for several days". The HO didn't know one way or the other, and so ran the system but said it didn't cool very well.

The only part of the system that needs lubrication is the compressor, and that has plenty of oil, even with no refrigerant.

[trader_4]

Again as Clare, Mark, HRHO, and I have explained in detail, with a small leak, the behavior you get after many days is exactly the same whether the leak is on the low side or the high side. You can now add Robert to that list.

And a system with the same small leak on the high side behaves exactly the same. What you see is not probative of whether the small leak is on the high side or the low side.

The eventually part is with the system off and when all the refrigerant is gone. It's not even the case we're talking about, because as I understand it, the system had not lost all the refrigerant. Nor does it have anything to do with the issue at hand.

Now you're conflating the system running with what happens to a system after many days when it's not running. And the compressor is going to be doing exactly the same thing, ie pushing refrigerant out the low side, without regard to whether the loss was via a small low side leak, a small high side leak, or someone manually removing the refrigerant. Think about that last part.

Neither side is going to equalize with atmospheric because of where the *small* leak is located. Yes, with the right amount of refrigerant gone, you could get a low side pressure equal to atmospheric, but you'd get exactly the same thing if the refrigerant left over many days via a small leak on the *high* side. You;d get the same reading if someone came and let out that amount of refrigerant deliberately and there was no leak at all. That reading can be computed knowing the system parameters, the temperatures, and the amount of charge in the system without even hooking up a gauge.

With a small leak, it takes days or weeks for the refrigerant to change significantly. That's what happened in the system you were working on, right? A small leak has an insignificant impact on what the system is doing over a short time span. Over 5 mins, you can't see anything change because of the leak. The pressure differences you do see are due to the *loss of refrigerant* that occured. And you'd see the same readings if that loss occured without regard to where the leak is located. You don't even need a leak, just take out the same amount of refrigerant that leaked out, but remove it manually. You'd have exactly the same high side and low side pressure readings as you would with the refrigerant missing via a small leak.

And yes, eventually, after days or weeks, the pressure would equalize to atmospheric, but not on just the low side. The pressure of the entire system will equal atmospheric.

You just said right here, right now it wasn't empty. Good grief.

I

It's funny that 4 other pe "Stormy, you're correct! If the system refrigerant is low, the low side pressure could easily drop to atmospheric pressure when the compressor turns on."

None of the 5 of us have disputed the statement above, but that isn't what you said. I would hope you would be honest enough to acknowledge that isn't what you're claiming or what the rest of us are debating. For the record, this is what you are claiming: " I returned a couple days later, and put a low side gage on. With the compressor running, the gage read about 8 inches mercury. If it was a low side leak, it would have read zero. "

See the major difference?

Maybe when you have 5 people telling you that you're wrong, explaining in detail the physics, and not one person agreeing, it would be a good time to reconsider who doesn't understand.

[Stormin Mormon]

CY: Actually, it's what I stated. Just takes longer to get to the point where the refrigerant is leaked out to where this happens.

CY:That's not what I've found in the real world. I'm writing from real life experience.

CY: Actually, the same happens when the system is running, and in the case of the high side leak, happens sooner while the system is running. I've got a sense you're repeatedly changing the issue at hand.

CY: In either case, with the system running, the pressures will eventually be as I described.

CY: The side with the leak will equalize with atmospheric. I keep explaining it to you.

Yes, with the right amount of

CY:And if the leak is high side.... never mind, you'll never understand. I'm done. .

[Stormin Mormon]

I'm operating on real world experience. You and four others who keep trying to drift the conversation have proved nothing.

[trader_4]

Now you're just being totally dishonest. I even specifically addressed in my last reply the huge difference in what we are saying, versus what you claim and not only didn't you answer the question, you edited the whole section out. Here it is again:

It's funny that 4 other pe "Stormy, you're correct! If the system refrigerant is low, the low side pressure could easily drop to atmospheric pressure when the compressor turns on."

None of the 5 of us have disputed the statement above, but that isn't what you said. I would hope you would be honest enough to acknowledge that isn't what you're claiming or what the rest of us are debating. For the record, this is what you are claiming:

" I returned a couple days later, and put a low side gage on. With the compressor running, the gage read about 8 inches mercury. If it was a low side leak, it would have read zero. "

See the major difference?

I would hope that if you're servicing systems, you would understand the basic physics. And if you do, then you should be able to explain to us how a pressure reading on the low side is probative of where a small leak is located. My physics and the physics of 4 others here say it isn't so. That's how people learn isn't it? By questioning how something works, explaining it. Yet, you have no explanation, and it seems now you're falling back on it just is because it is.

I'm as focused as a laser beam on the issue at hand. So are the other posters. It's you who's wandering all over the place.

And again, talk about changing the issue..... The issue isn't what the pressure will be. The issue is that you're claiming that the pressure readings are probative of where a small leak is located. If this is true, why don't you go find a link from a credible source that says so? If it worked that way, it would be of huge benefit to techs. If you have a system with a slow leak, you're saying all you need to do is put the gauges on with it running and you can tell if it's a high side or low side leak. That would be of HUGE benefit in terms of where to look for the leak. They could rule out one whole' side of the system and focus on the other. So, if it's true, it should be all over the internet where they talk about the steps to finding a small leak. It would save techs time and $$$. But I'm betting you can't find it in tech training or anywhere.

And we all keep explaining to you that if you see a reading where the pressure is equal to atmospheric it's because of the loss of refrigerant, not because of where the leak is, or even because of the leak at all. Three scenarios:

1 - Small leak is on high side, 4 lbs of refrigerant is lost over a week.

2 - Small leak is on low side, 4 lbs is lost over a week.

3 - I let out 4lbs in 2 mins.

Start the system up, put the gauges on, and you will have *exactly* the same readings? Why? Because the pressure is determined by the system, temps, amount of charge. A tiny leak has no effect on the operation over the course of 5 or 10 mins of observation. Physics of this universe say so.

[Stormin Mormon]

Time waster. Appealing to the "everyone says so" argument, also.

[trader_4]

Well, when you have 5 people here, most of us with pretty good track records of being right when it comes to this kind of thing, not only telling you that you're wrong, but also explaining in detail the physics of why, and not one person agreeing with you, maybe it's time to reconsider. Or at least explain your physics.

And you continue to ignore the parts of posts that focus exactly on the issue, like this:

Three scenarios:

1 - Small leak is on high side, 4 lbs of refrigerant is lost over a week.

2 - Small leak is on low side, 4 lbs is lost over a week.

3 - I let out 4lbs in 2 mins.

Start the system up, put the gauges on, and you will have *exactly* the same readings? Why? Because the pressure is determined by the system, temps, amount of charge. A tiny leak has no effect on the operation over the course of 5 or 10 mins of observation. Physics of this universe say so.

If you want to reply as to the physics that says the above scenario is wrong, I'm sure we'd all be happy to see it. And please, address it point by point and not in incomplete sentences that mean nothing like "because eventually the pressure is equal".

[Stormin Mormon]

You still wasting my time? Still using the "everyone says" argument? I tried a couple times to explain what I find in real life.

[Joe Biden]

Yah Stormy, one of the five thinks he has a magic 2-phase transformer cuz he got his scope leads reversed.

[trader_4]

he got his scope leads reversed.

It's not magic, unless you don't understand electrical engineering and prefer to remain ignorant. The IEEE power systems engineer that presented this paper before an IEEE conference of power systems engineers said exactly the same thing. It could not be any clearer or more to the point:

4520128

"Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary sy stems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three w ire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120 /240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the s econdary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separa ted by 120 degrees. What all of this means is that analysis software and me thods must now deal with an electrical system requiring a different set of algorithms than those used to model and analyze the primary system."

The IEEE is about as credible a reference as you can get. And the author of that paper, which was published by the IEEE has many other peer reviewed papers published by the IEEE. Of course, you don't even know what the IEEE is.

If you want more, from a tutorial from an electrical eqpt manufacturer:

On Fig 1. Note that one leg is labeled phase A, the other phase B.

Followed by:

"The phase of hot leg 2 (phase B) is in the opposite direction, ie 180 degrees apart from the phase of hot leg 1 (phase A)".

They go on to describe the phase relationship and state:

"This indicates that the two 120 VAC voltages are 180 degrees out of phase"

An application note from another electrical eqpt manufacturer:

"The two legs, represented by Phase A and Phase B are 180 degrees apart."

Since you want to drag this other discussion into this, it's worth noting that Stormin's AC dispute and the phase discussion have some important things in common. One is that in both cases, I can and have answered every question posed, in detail and explained it with physics. The other side can't explain anything and resorts to 3 word, partial sentences that don't clarify, but just evade or deflect. In the case of phase, I asked a dozen times for others to give a definition of phase, which is certainly a reasonable expectation. If you're going to debate it, then you should be able to give your definition. I got not one answer from the other side.

And just like in the discussion of phase, those taking cheap shots, bring nothing, no references, no science, nada to the discussion. And as I said before, from your response, it appears that you didn't even u nderstand what Stormin said. Here is what you posted:

"Stormy, you're correct! If the system refrigerant is low, the low side pr essure could easily dr "I returned a couple days later, and put a low side gage on. With the compressor running, the gage read about 8 inches mercury. If it was a low side leak, it would have read zero. "

Do you agree that with a small leak, that the fact it read

8 inches instead of zero, indicates that the leak is on the high side?

And why do you have to hide behind multiple aliases? I think we all know why......

[Ashton Crusher]

Why? How could it let air in as fast as the compressor pulls it out?