Predictions on all the freon leaked out and need AC system replaced

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On Thu, 12 Jun 2014 22:07:39 -0400, Stormin Mormon

With a big leak, yes - but I've found many "seepers" that read perfect when running. Leaks so small the old halide torch couldn't find them and electronic leak detectors have a hard time, but when you open up the heater box and expose the evaporator, the bottom corner is covered with oily dirt. Clean it up and squirt some soapy water on it, and you have bubbles. 1 pound a year leaks- sometimes half a pound - but leaks
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On 6/12/2014 10:33 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

And, eventually, the low side will read zero while the compressor is running. Except that car AC have a low side pressure switch.
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On Friday, June 13, 2014 7:16:40 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:

OK I don't like to argue on the internet, but I agree with the others.
When the system is off, the pressure is equal and will leak the same high side or low side. When the system is turned on of course the pressure will be low because the charge is Low but the leak itself will not effect the pressure if it is small so there will be no difference if the leak was on the high side or low side.
thanks for listening, I'm done here.
Mark
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On 6/13/2014 11:06 AM, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

leak the same high side or low side.

be low because the charge is Low but the leak itself will not effect the pressure if it is small so there will be no difference if the leak was on the high side or low side.

The question at hand: A low side leak (house central AC), produces zero PSI on the low side while the system is running. A high side leak (house central AC) can result in less than zero PSI on the low side while the system is running. I have found this to be the case. And, it's still permissible to ask me why this is.
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On Saturday, June 14, 2014 7:36:50 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:

OK, we're talking about a system that has a very small leak. His point is that when the system is off, refrigerant is going to leak out essentially equally whether the leak is on the high side or the low side, because the system pressure is equal when it's off. You agree?
Now, you come back a week later like you did and it's lost a pound of refrigerant. By what physics does that produce zero pounds of pressure on the low side, if and only if the leak is on the low side? It would seem to me that the pressure is going to be independent of where the leak is, because the leak is small and has no observable differing effect on the system pressure, whether it's on the high or low side. The system just has less refrigerant and that affects the pressures, but without regard to where the leak is. The only way it could effect pressure to make an observable difference that I can see would be if it was a large leak, not a small one. And you're not saying just observable, you're saying a small leak produces 0 psi?
Something here we're missing?
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On 6/14/2014 12:01 PM, trader_4 wrote:

CY: Systems leak out, at leaks. So, the turned off system leaks... at the leaks. Disagree.

CY: If the leak is on the high side, eventually the system will get down to the point where the low side (running) reads below zero.

CY: Makes a big differnce, to me.
The system just has less

CY: I think it makes a difference.
The only way it could effect pressure to make an

CY: Small leak will behave same as big leak, just takes longer to get to that point.
And you're not saying just observable, you're saying

CY: A small leak on the low side will eventually result in 0 PSI on the low side while running.

CY: Must be!
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On Saturday, June 14, 2014 1:28:14 PM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Of course it leaks at the "leaks". The question was do you agree that with the system off, when it hasn't been running for hours, that the pressure in the system equalizes and it's the same on the high and low side? Apparently your answer is "no"? Must be some strange physics.

And why won't exactly the same thing happen if the small leak is on the low pressure side? Explain. The low pressure reading when it's running goes down because of the loss of refrigerant, without regard to which side the leak is on. That is all that Claire, Mark and I are saying.

But you haven't been able to explain why there would be any difference. Again, must be some strange physics.

Then explain how. By our laws of physics and how the system works, we can't see how there could be a difference with a small leak.

Not really true, plus I thought you were talking about taking readings over a few minutes, where a small leak doesn't have the time to leak any amount of refrigerant that would make a difference.

Define "eventually". We're not talking about a week, which is the timeframe of the leak you're talking about making a difference.

The only thing I see missing is any explanation to the alleged effect.
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On 6/14/2014 3:30 PM, trader_4 wrote:

CY: Reading that again, not sure what I was thinking.

CY: Because the lowside and the atmosphere will equal each other through the leak hole.
The low pressure reading when it's

CY: In that case, you're saying something different than myself.

CY: See above. And please stop adding lines to the posts. I've been taking the added lines back out. And it's tedius.

CY: Just takes longer.

CY: Did you ask? I'm talking about after a period of time when the system has leaked out as much as it's going to.

CY: Eventually is long enough to leak out as much as it's going to.

CY: And finally you got your wish. If you or someone asks, I'll explain why a high side leak can and eventually does result in low side below zero (which is one of my diagnostic techniques)
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On Sunday, June 15, 2014 4:37:24 PM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:

So why don't you take the opportunity to correct it and say you now agree. Or else explain why you don't agree.

We're just talking past each other here. The low side and the atmosphere can equal each other regardless of where the small leak is on the low side or the high side. A small leak's effect on the system is for it to lose refrigerant. Whether that loss is via a small leak on the high side, the low side, or by someone deliberately removing some of the refrigerant, the readings you see on the gauges when the system is running are the same. It's how much refrigerant that was lost that determines what you read, not how it left the system.

Well, yes. I'm saying what Mark, Clare and hrho also told you. That you can't tell where a small leak is, whether it's on the high side, the low side, or someone just removed refrigerant while you weren't looking. All will produce the same gauge readings with the system running. For the leak to show up on the gauges, it would have to me a large leak, not one where the system loses some refrigerant over the course of many days, like the one discussed.

You didn't explain anything above. I'm not adding lines, GG is.

You haven't explained anything and your short 3 word answers don't help. What takes longer? What does that have to do with anything? Sure, it takes longer for refrigerant to be lost through a small leak. It has nothing to do with your claim:
"I returned a couple days later, and put a low side gage on. With the compressor running, the gage read about 8 inches mercury. If it was a low side leak, it would have read zero. "

No, again, this is what you claimed:
" I returned a couple days later, and put a low side gage on. With the compressor running, the gage read about 8 inches mercury. If it was a low side leak, it would have read zero. "
And we're still waiting for the explanation of the physics behind it.

Now you're just playing silly games. That means the system would be empty and you were not even talking about an empty system. And it would be empty regardless of the leak being on the high or the low side. And if you put gauges on, you still can't tell with any reading whether the small leak that eventually resulted in total refrigerant loss was on the high side or the low side.

Again, that is very different from what you claimed:
"I returned a couple days later, and put a low side gage on. With the compressor running, the gage read about 8 inches mercury. If it was a low side leak, it would have read zero. "
Are you just screwing with us, or don't you realize that?
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On 6/15/2014 7:49 PM, trader_4 wrote:

Any chance of a post less than 100 lines? This one has 310.
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On 6/15/2014 7:49 PM, trader_4 wrote:

CY: Will reread that in the morning.

CY: Actually, a high side leak and a low side leak will provide very different results.

CY: And when the system finishes leaking, the high or low side leaks will provide different readings.
I'll delete the rest, it's more than 100 or so lines.
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On 6/15/2014 7:49 PM, trader_4 wrote:

OK, well, then I'll reply to about 100 lines of message, and delete the rest. No worries.
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On 6/15/2014 7:49 PM, trader_4 wrote:

CY: And after the many days, you'd get the high or low leak behaviour.

CY:And after a few days, the slow leak system behaves just like I wrote.

CY: When there is a high side leak, eventually the pressure of the high size equalizes with the atmosphere (zero). The compressor is trying to push refrigerant out of the low side, which (low) side goes below atmospheric pressure. OTOH, if the low side was leaking, the low side would equalize with atmospheric, and the low gage would read zero.

CY: Who says I wasn't talking about an empty system? When I got back to the HO place a couple days after a test charge, the system was pretty much empty. I returned to find near zero PSI with the compressor off. I've explained to you how I can tell low versus high side leak, by the low side pressure while the system is running. I'm wondering if you're just a time waster.

CY: No difference at all. I stand by what I wrote. I can't help it if you don't understand what I write.
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On Monday, June 16, 2014 7:43:49 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Again as Clare, Mark, HRHO, and I have explained in detail, with a small leak, the behavior you get after many days is exactly the same whether the leak is on the low side or the high side. You can now add Robert to that list.

And a system with the same small leak on the high side behaves exactly the same. What you see is not probative of whether the small leak is on the high side or the low side.

The eventually part is with the system off and when all the refrigerant is gone. It's not even the case we're talking about, because as I understand it, the system had not lost all the refrigerant. Nor does it have anything to do with the issue at hand.

Now you're conflating the system running with what happens to a system after many days when it's not running. And the compressor is going to be doing exactly the same thing, ie pushing refrigerant out the low side, without regard to whether the loss was via a small low side leak, a small high side leak, or someone manually removing the refrigerant. Think about that last part.

Neither side is going to equalize with atmospheric because of where the *small* leak is located. Yes, with the right amount of refrigerant gone, you could get a low side pressure equal to atmospheric, but you'd get exactly the same thing if the refrigerant left over many days via a small leak on the *high* side. You;d get the same reading if someone came and let out that amount of refrigerant deliberately and there was no leak at all. That reading can be computed knowing the system parameters, the temperatures, and the amount of charge in the system without even hooking up a gauge.
With a small leak, it takes days or weeks for the refrigerant to change significantly. That's what happened in the system you were working on, right? A small leak has an insignificant impact on what the system is doing over a short time span. Over 5 mins, you can't see anything change because of the leak. The pressure differences you do see are due to the *loss of refrigerant* that occured. And you'd see the same readings if that loss occured without regard to where the leak is located. You don't even need a leak, just take out the same amount of refrigerant that leaked out, but remove it manually. You'd have exactly the same high side and low side pressure readings as you would with the refrigerant missing via a small leak.
And yes, eventually, after days or weeks, the pressure would equalize to atmospheric, but not on just the low side. The pressure of the entire system will equal atmospheric.

You just said right here, right now it wasn't empty. Good grief.
I

It's funny that 4 other people here agree completely with me. Only one agreed with you and if you read what that one person posted, they were not talking about the same thing. They said:
"Stormy, you're correct! If the system refrigerant is low, the low side pressure could easily drop to atmospheric pressure when the compressor turns on."
None of the 5 of us have disputed the statement above, but that isn't what you said. I would hope you would be honest enough to acknowledge that isn't what you're claiming or what the rest of us are debating. For the record, this is what you are claiming: " I returned a couple days later, and put a low side gage on. With the compressor running, the gage read about 8 inches mercury. If it was a low side leak, it would have read zero. "
See the major difference?

Maybe when you have 5 people telling you that you're wrong, explaining in detail the physics, and not one person agreeing, it would be a good time to reconsider who doesn't understand.
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On 6/16/2014 8:43 AM, trader_4 wrote:

CY: Actually, it's what I stated. Just takes longer to get to the point where the refrigerant is leaked out to where this happens.

CY:That's not what I've found in the real world. I'm writing from real life experience.

CY: Actually, the same happens when the system is running, and in the case of the high side leak, happens sooner while the system is running. I've got a sense you're repeatedly changing the issue at hand.

CY: In either case, with the system running, the pressures will eventually be as I described.

CY: The side with the leak will equalize with atmospheric. I keep explaining it to you.
Yes, with the right amount of

CY:And if the leak is high side.... never mind, you'll never understand. I'm done. .
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On Monday, June 16, 2014 9:03:42 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Now you're just being totally dishonest. I even specifically addressed in my last reply the huge difference in what we are saying, versus what you claim and not only didn't you answer the question, you edited the whole section out. Here it is again:
It's funny that 4 other people here agree completely with me. Only one agreed with you and if you read what that one person posted, they were not talking about the same thing. They said:
"Stormy, you're correct! If the system refrigerant is low, the low side pressure could easily drop to atmospheric pressure when the compressor turns on."
None of the 5 of us have disputed the statement above, but that isn't what you said. I would hope you would be honest enough to acknowledge that isn't what you're claiming or what the rest of us are debating. For the record, this is what you are claiming:
" I returned a couple days later, and put a low side gage on. With the compressor running, the gage read about 8 inches mercury. If it was a low side leak, it would have read zero. "
See the major difference?

I would hope that if you're servicing systems, you would understand the basic physics. And if you do, then you should be able to explain to us how a pressure reading on the low side is probative of where a small leak is located. My physics and the physics of 4 others here say it isn't so. That's how people learn isn't it? By questioning how something works, explaining it. Yet, you have no explanation, and it seems now you're falling back on it just is because it is.

I'm as focused as a laser beam on the issue at hand. So are the other posters. It's you who's wandering all over the place.

And again, talk about changing the issue..... The issue isn't what the pressure will be. The issue is that you're claiming that the pressure readings are probative of where a small leak is located. If this is true, why don't you go find a link from a credible source that says so? If it worked that way, it would be of huge benefit to techs. If you have a system with a slow leak, you're saying all you need to do is put the gauges on with it running and you can tell if it's a high side or low side leak. That would be of HUGE benefit in terms of where to look for the leak. They could rule out one whole' side of the system and focus on the other. So, if it's true, it should be all over the internet where they talk about the steps to finding a small leak. It would save techs time and $$$. But I'm betting you can't find it in tech training or anywhere.

And we all keep explaining to you that if you see a reading where the pressure is equal to atmospheric it's because of the loss of refrigerant, not because of where the leak is, or even because of the leak at all. Three scenarios:
1 - Small leak is on high side, 4 lbs of refrigerant is lost over a week.
2 - Small leak is on low side, 4 lbs is lost over a week.
3 - I let out 4lbs in 2 mins.
Start the system up, put the gauges on, and you will have *exactly* the same readings? Why? Because the pressure is determined by the system, temps, amount of charge. A tiny leak has no effect on the operation over the course of 5 or 10 mins of observation. Physics of this universe say so.
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On 6/16/2014 9:39 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Time waster. Appealing to the "everyone says so" argument, also.
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On Monday, June 16, 2014 9:47:06 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Well, when you have 5 people here, most of us with pretty good track records of being right when it comes to this kind of thing, not only telling you that you're wrong, but also explaining in detail the physics of why, and not one person agreeing with you, maybe it's time to reconsider. Or at least explain your physics.
And you continue to ignore the parts of posts that focus exactly on the issue, like this:
Three scenarios:
1 - Small leak is on high side, 4 lbs of refrigerant is lost over a week.
2 - Small leak is on low side, 4 lbs is lost over a week.
3 - I let out 4lbs in 2 mins.
Start the system up, put the gauges on, and you will have *exactly* the same readings? Why? Because the pressure is determined by the system, temps, amount of charge. A tiny leak has no effect on the operation over the course of 5 or 10 mins of observation. Physics of this universe say so.
If you want to reply as to the physics that says the above scenario is wrong, I'm sure we'd all be happy to see it. And please, address it point by point and not in incomplete sentences that mean nothing like "because eventually the pressure is equal".
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On 6/16/2014 9:57 AM, trader_4 wrote:

You still wasting my time? Still using the "everyone says" argument? I tried a couple times to explain what I find in real life.
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On 6/16/2014 8:43 AM, trader_4 wrote:

I'm operating on real world experience. You and four others who keep trying to drift the conversation have proved nothing.
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