Power connections for stove

[Andrew Sarangan]

I am replacing an old stove. There is 220V power, but there is no outlet on the wall behind the stove. The wires (encased in a flexible metal conduit) were coming from under the floor, and they were directly attached to the old stove. The sales person at Lowes told me that that is no longer allowed by code, and that I have to install an outlet and then use 3-prong plug to attach the stove to it. Can anyone verify that? The old stove was a 'drop-in' kind, but the new one is a floor unit, if that makes any difference to the situation.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

I don't know about the code, but it is not a big deal to change. If the wire is in BX, you can use a surface mounted receptacle and attach the existing wires to it.

[Tony Hwang]

[Wade Lippman]

All appliances require a means to disconnect them within sight of the appliance, or a means to disconnect them and then lock them out. A plug will obviously meet that requirement; but presumably your breaker will accept a "lock-off" device. So, my understanding is that the sales person is wrong in general; however, your town may have more restrictive requirements than normal, or they might not accept the "lock-off" device. I would call the town if you are concerned.

I hate to throw in another complication, but current code requires both a neutral and a ground, and you don't have them. Ordinarily you would not need to update your wiring to meet current code if you were just attaching a new stove, but if you change something on the circuit (such as installing an outlet where there wasn't one before) the finished product must meet current code. Again, your town may or may not enforce it this rigorously.

[Randd01]

I just replaced my father in laws electric stove and the new stoves are 4 prong not three. Make sure you find out which one your new stove will have before you go buy anything. Wade or anyone else do you know the reason for the neutral on 220V I don't understand why it is needed. THough all you needed was two feeds of 110V and a ground. Are they splitting the power and running the controls and clock on 110V now?

[DaveG]

Exactly. The clock/timers/display panel and interior lite, if you have one, runs on 120V. They have been for some time, I think. Dave

[Gary Tait]

Whereas On 23 Oct 2003 10:20:13 GMT, [e-mail] (Randd01) scribbled: , I thus relpy:

tHe are using the neutral to power clocks and such. For new installations, the code no longer allows using the ground as the neutral for a stove, but if it is two wires + ground there, you can install an old style recepticle there, and install an old style cord on the stove.

[volts500]

Also, when installing a 3-wire (old style) cord on a range or dryer it is very critical that the (factory) jumper be connected from the neutral terminal (on the terminal block) to the appliance frame...........otherwise the frame will _not_ be grounded.

[TURTLE]

frame...........otherwise

This is Turtle.

Is it legal to combine the Neutral and the ground at the receptical behind the stove and not go all the way back to switch box with the extra ground or neutral / making 4 wire system Hot,hot,Ground, and Neutral?

TURTLE

[Charles Krug]

No, it isn't. The box has to maintain the distinction between the grounDED (neutral) conductor and the groundING conductor (green/bare), which are only connected at the service entrance in residential work.

The idea is that the green wire only carries current in the event of a fault. If they're combined in the box, the ground could carry current in normal operation, which isn't Kosher.

It should be easy enough to either install the proper jumper or a new

4-pole outlet.

[HA HA Budys Here]

New code applies to new construction, or new circuits installed TODAY, not new appliances. Hook up your new stove exactly the way the old one was connected and don't worry about "what the guy at Lowe's told me."

People who work at home centers are either has-beens or wanna-bes and love baffling homeowners with what little knowledge they do have, even if it's inaccurate or inapplicable.

[Randd01]

HERE HERE!!

[Chris Lewis]

According to Wade Lippman :

Here (Canada) whenever you replaced a stove or dryer you _had_ to install a

4-wire outlet, full stop. This dates back at least 30 years.

As I understand it, while Canada insists on going to 4 wire on ALL installations (or renovations), US code has grandfathered 3 wire to the point where just putting an outlet on a 3-wire circuit won't require an upgrade to 4-wire. Ask an inspector to be sure. This will probably vary widely from place to place.

[This is despite the fact that in the US, they permit you to treat conduit as a ground, hence a conduited 3-wire circuit is trivially upgradeable to 4 wire, but in Canada, you cannot (legally) use conduit as a grounding conductor.]

[Chris Lewis]

According to TURTLE :

I would suspect _not_, because having the four prong plug will be misleading. Perhaps not "illegal" per-se, but an inspector wouldn't like it.

Besides, it's usually very difficult to pigtail #8 or #6 wire inside the outlet like that.

I wouldn't install a four prong outlet & plug unless the circuit really was four wire. Three wire stove/dryer circuits are still legal for "old construction" (down there), so I'd stick with three prong unless you really were upping the circuit to 4 wire.

New construction, of course, must be 4 wire.

[Chris Lewis]

According to HA HA Budys Here :

Not always. While _most_ old practise is grandfathered, there are exceptions. Like smoke detector rules. It _certainly_ is here in the case of stoves and dryers.

[HA HA Budys Here]

Really Chris? Where exactly is "here?" Say a homeowner with a 30 year old range, directly wired, replaces it with a new one. What code or city/county ordinance supercedes your National or Canadian electrical code which has absolutely no provision to replace that kind of installation with an updated, current code-compliant method?

[HA HA Budys Here]

No, it would definately be illegal.

In the case where only a 3-wire existed, it would be a hot, hot, ground. And most likely, type SEU cable. So the "pigtailing" would be from ground to neutral, not neutral to ground. The ground would be smaller than the conductors. And with all the 8/3 with ground I've seen, the ground is #10 anyway.

The correct phrase would be "existing installations."

[user]

Oh, tell me about it. We had our basement finished earlier this year in our ranch house. But to get approval, we had to have the entire house retrofitted with A/C powered, interconnected smoke detectors.

If we had the permit in hand just 2 weeks earlier, then the new smoke detectors wouldn't have been required. Gotta love it...

[Chris Lewis]

According to HA HA Budys Here :

Really.

Under the "new work must comply with code" rules and what the inspectors _insist_ upon.

[HA HA Budys Here]

Replacing an existing appliance is not new work Chris. Not here, not in Canada, not anywhere.

I suppose in an old home, wired with knob & tube, or 2-wire NM cable, you're not permitted to replace the 2-prong outlets with new 2-prong outlets either, huh?