We've added a screened porch to our deck on the back of the house. Would this typically be considered an outside or inside environment for electrical? Should conduit be used to wire an outlet and ceiling fan circuit?
Thanks, Tom
Screened = open
Don't know what code says, but from a practical aspect, I'd treat any non-heated and/or humid space as 'outside', fully enclosed or not. Seen enough rusted fittings and connections even in unheated attached garages. Condensation is a bitch, even if mother nature can't rain on it directly. Conduit and weather-rated fixtures are cheaper than redoing the work a few years down the line. Just IMHO, of course, YMMV.
aem sends...
Conduit would be good, but if you want to avoid using it, use UF cable. The stuff made for underground. I have it in my barns and other outbuildings and it works just fine. It's not all that much more costly than standard NM romex. It's a little harder to strip, but after a few pieces, you'll catch on.
Careful...
"Type UF cable shall not be used ... where exposed to direct rays of the sun, unless identified as sunlight-resistant." [NEC, Art. 339-3(b)]
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
I think that the National Electrical Code would define this as a "Damp" location and should be wired using materials approved for that environment. The ceiling fan would need to be approved for damp locations and the receptacle should be GFCI protected.
You can use metal or PVC conduit, Type NMC cable, Type MC cable, and Type UF cable.
John Grabowski
According to John Grabowski :
It's been my experience (Canadian inspectors), that anything with a real roof over it is considered "indoors", within reason, but that may have changed since.
It used to be, and may still be, for example, that outdoor outlets didn't have to be GFCI if they were on a deck, with more than 8' between them and an unobstructed path to the dirt. You don't need conduit, wiring still has to comply with indoor rules for protection.
Given our wiring code, everything assumes "damp" (we're not allowed to use ordinary NM, everything's NMD or better), so classifying it as a "damp location" would make no difference.
But it doesn't hurt to go further than the minimum. I wouldn't conduit in-wall or in-roof wiring. Wiring physically exposed on walls, underside of ceiling, or exposed to the sun in any way, would be PVC conduit. I'd use weatherproof boxes and GFCIs, 8' path to dirt or not.
I'd be very hesitant about installing a ceiling fan. Corrosion issues. Unless, perhaps, under a very large roof, recessed above the eaves.
Okay, treating the porch as outside with PVC conduit seems like the safest approach. I really want a ceiling fan and in my installation it will be well protected from the elements and tucked into the rafters of a shingled roof.
Here's another issue I'd appreaciate help with. The obvious way to get power into the porch is to punch through the stucco and tap into an outlet on an inside wall. There isn't much on this circuit and every other route I can think of would require a lot of creative carpentry. The problem is that this is a very old house and there is no ground on this circuit. What is the proper way to establish a ground for this circuit? Re-wiring the whole circuit is very impractical. Can I ground to a water pipe? Can I run a ground wire along the outside of the house to the service ground? Would the ground fault interrupter eliminate the need for a ground?
Thanks, Tom
"Easiest way to ground a computer?" was discussed in the newsgroup alt.home.repair in the week after 5 May 2005. Grounding, GFCI, and other solutions as discussed there answers your questions. Answered there (and in other places) is why/where grounding to pipes is illegal; but worse, not desirable.
BTW, I recall the code demands specific wall receptacles be > Okay, treating the porch as outside with PVC conduit seems like the
OK so far...
Install a ground-fault circuit interrupter. You won't have a ground, but you
*will* be protected against ground faults. The GFCI will include several stickers that say "No Equipment Ground" - place these stickers on every outlet that is protected by that GFCI.No. Illegal and dangerous. If a ground fault should occur, that would electrify the water pipe.
No. Code requires that all conductors for any circuit be in the same cable, raceway, conduit, etc.
Yes.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
Tom wrote:
You can extend the circuit. The equipment grounding conductor would be run to any accessable point on the grounding electrode system. (The water pipe in the house in the house is not part of the electrode system exept for the first 5 feet where the water comes into the building assuming the water service is metal)
The electrical code reads as follows:
250.130 Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections. Equipment grounding conductor connections at the source of separately derived systems shall be made in accordance with 250.30(A)(1). Equipment grounding conductor connections at service equipment shall be made as indicated in 250.130(A) or (B). For replacement of non?grounding-type receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch-circuit extensions only in existing installations that do not have an equipment grounding conductor in the branch circuit, connections shall be permitted as indicated in 250.130(C). (A) For Grounded Systems. The connection shall be made by bonding the equipment grounding conductor to the grounded service conductor and the grounding electrode conductor. (B) For Ungrounded Systems. The connection shall be made by bonding the equipment grounding conductor to the grounding electrode conductor. (C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following: (1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50 (2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor (3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates (4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure (5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure FPN: See 406.3(D) for the use of a ground-fault circuit-interrupting type of receptacle.Good luck Don
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