Pop rivets


I'm constructing a garbage (shopping) bag holder/dispenser consisting of about 28 inches of 7 inch metal duct pipe, a cap (also duct and this is actually on the bottom), a webbing strap to attach it to the wood above the space next to the refrigerator, and vinyl similar to seat covering to cover the piping and the hand hole in the side.
I was attaching the cap to the bottom with pop rivets but unfortunately I broke the gun so I'm in the market for a new one. In reviewing the available options I see that there are ones with 14 and 18 inch handles. Great idea. I'm as weak as a kitten and extra leverage would help a lot. But...
All this opens up a can of worms. Should the blind side of the rivet be the same shape as the visible side (i.e. a barely discernible bump) or should 90% of the blind rivet be still un-flattened? The current situation is mostly un-flattened but if this is the correct state of affairs these have to be cut off so they don't tear the bags.
The web is annoyingly simplistic in all the how to's on the subject. I have yet to find one that describes:
When to use aluminum and when to use steel.
Which # is first (or second). Is the first number the diameter of the hole I need to drill and the second the thickness of the plate to be joined? In which case I should be looking at a 1/8 by (18 + 18ga) but such a rivet doesn't exist. Supply exists of things like 1/8 * 3/8 inches. Yikes! That implies two plates totaling 3/8 inch thick. A massive piece of steel! Obviously I'm reading this all wrong.
What size and type of gun do the people who use these frequently (not in a factory environment) choose?
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snipped-for-privacy@nowhere.gov wrote:

The handles on mine are only about 10" long, and it's pretty easy to use. Can't imagine why anyone would need 18" handles on a pop riveter.

No.
No. If that's what you're getting, then you're using the wrong size rivets. Try getting some that are shorter. What size are you using now?

It's normal for there to be a protruding lump on the back side. It's not normal for that lump to be much longer than the diameter of the rivet.

When joining pieces of aluminum, or steel, respectively. Obviously.

Yes.
Not quite. The second number is the *maximum* combined thickness of materials that the rivet will fasten together.

1/8 x 1/4 or 1/8 x 3/16 should work just fine.

3/8" is not "a massive piece of steel" by any stretch of the imagination. A more common use for a 3/8" long rivet would be attaching sheet metal to 1/4" steel -- a 1/4" rivet isn't long enough.

I just use a basic hand riveter that I bought at Sears many years ago for about five bucks.
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snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Presumably you have no difficulty cutting (say) 7 inch duct pipe with a manual pair of snips too. I do. It was a wonderful day I ignored the advice from the HVAC people and purchased a electric snip from Grizzly. I have the same problem here. Just accept that neither my right nor my left hand can crush a VW <g>. Imagine I'm an 8 year old boy.

Looks like about 3/8 inch.

Not obvious. What effect would there be to use aluminum (softer) in a steel pipe in the absence of moisture and/or electrical conduction questions? Even if corrosion resulted if it took ten years to manifest itself it's unimportant given the application. OTOH if the aluminum rivet will break after five days...that's another story.

What do the HVAC people use?

Maybe my imagination stretches further than yours. 3/8 may not be massive in the context of tank armor but a 3/8 thick duct pipe (or car door, or refrigerator panel) would be huge.

Why would you ever use a pop rivet in 1/4 steel? Nut, bolt, screw, tap... a lot more appropriate.

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snipped-for-privacy@nowhere.gov wrote:
-snip-

Not to attach an info plate, sign, cigar holder, cup holder, or whatever. Just cause the base is heavy duty, doesn't mean everything touching it is.
Jim
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snipped-for-privacy@nowhere.gov wrote:

*Waaaaaay* too long for riveting two pieces of sheet metal.

"Absence of moisture"? You live in an area where the relative humidity is *zero* ??

Shear strength, if the joint is subjected to physical stress.

Depends on how strong the joint needs to be. Use aluminum rivets on aluminum, and steel rivets on steel. I repeat, this is obvious; if you don't find it so, then perhaps you should consider that you're already in over your head.

Sheet metal screws.

Or maybe you just have an exaggerated view of what "massive" is.

And a lot slower -- and hopefully, that makes the answer to your question "Why"... obvious.

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snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Well, that's the smallest size that came with my Sears Craftsman riveter kit about 20 years ago. You can see that I don't use these too often.

I can see you're an argumentative type. As you probably realize when I'm talking about the absence of moisture I'm referring to an application such as a plumbing pipe where you mix (say) copper or brass and steel an set up a galvanic reaction. The moisture affecting my application is going to be trivial.

You know what the application is. I described it in my first post. No physical stress is likely to be involved.

In over my head? What are you? Some rivet expert talking down to the amateurs?

Right Mr Expert. Maybe you should upgrade your knowledge. Have a look at a cap such as the 7" sheet metal cap I'm using. How was that constructed? With friggin' pop rivets and designed by a real expert in a factory! What size pop rivets are used? A reply to that question would also answer mine.
Fortunately Dan G gave a pertinent helpful answer.
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snipped-for-privacy@nowhere.gov wrote:

*You're* the one who can't figure out how to use simple tools, Rocket Scientist.
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On Aug 7, 7:54pm, snipped-for-privacy@nowhere.gov wrote:

I made the mistake of buying a standard rivet gun many years ago. I realized my mistake until one day I needed to use a rivet. Standard rivet guns only go up to 3/16 while a capacity rivet gun can be used on smaller rivets just by changing the tip. Now I never use my old rivet gun and it sits in the back of the shop someplace.
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You are using the wrong size/type rivets. Here is a site that gives very explicit details. This link takes you to their button head rivets: http://www.blindrivetsupply.com/Button_Head_Rivet_Alum_Alum.html they have other types, etc
I, and most of the professionals I know, use Marson guns: http://www.blindrivetsupply.com/Rivet_Guns.html I have several of the HP-2. I do have one that will do 1/4, but rarely ever get it out.
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DanG
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