Pool store literature (the salesman says) is written for dummies so that they hire an electrician, which may not be necessary. The power source requires a dedicated 20 amp GCFI circuit. There is already a convenient GCFI wall socket (basement outside wall, shielded from weather.
I can go and buy a new 12-ga. ext. cord rated for 20 amp. (because the old one is marked only 15 amp.) But does my existing GFCI socket provide 20 amps?
That would depend on:
A: The rating of the GFCI outlet B: The rating of the circuit it's on, ie check the circuit breaker
But unless this is some kind of portable device, you can't connect a pool pump with a cord that's longer than
3 ft, at least not in the USA. You can use a 3 ft. max cord to make servicing easier. And note that's a corded pump, not a pump cord going to an extension cord, going to a GFCI outlet, which is not allowed.Additionally, there are other requirements to make it safe, eg bonding.
The breaker circuit currently powers outdoor GFCI (rating unknown) and: indoor stairs down, basement lobby, basement overhead lamps and basement wall sockets (used for computer). Is there any way laymen can calculate current max. load and total circuit capacity?
Possibly not so in Canada, e.g. regular above-ground pool pumps (1 h.p.) are equipped with 25-ft. grounded ext. cords.
Yes: ground for saltwater chlorinator to be installed by pool constructors.
U/L has 2 classifications for pool pumps enforced by the NEC/CEC A "permanent" pool pump can have a 3 foot max cord A "storable" pool pump can have a 25' cord. Both have to be on a GFCI
The permanent pool pump should have a twist lock plug
The load of the lights is going to depend on what bulbs you're using. The receptacles are going to depend on what's plugged into them. The pump will have it's numbers on the plate. Pool pump here draws about 7.5 amps or so. But that's at 240V, so it's probably about double for a similar pump at 120V. If that outlet is currently on a 20A circuit, from a practical standpoint, you haven't got much left. Even if the other stuff is just a couple amps, you're getting close to the max. And those are the pump running amps, it's going to pull more when starting. From a practical standpoint it sounds marginal, whether it violates some part of the code, not sure about all the rules for putting a motor on a branch circuit and I'm sure some of the pros will have the answer.
Apparently an above-ground pool that doesn't hold more than
1M of water is considered "storable", that's the distinction compared to a permanent pool and the 3ft cord rule for motors doesn't apply. Again, that's USA.All the pool metal needs to be bonded together, eg motor, chlorinator, ladders, etc.
The GFCI outlet rating is easy to determine. If the power pins are parallel only, it's 15A. If one is turned 90 degrees (90 degree pin can be inserted), it's a 20A outlet. Basically, a 20A plug has one of the pins rotated. If this plug won't go in, it's not rated at 20A. The GFCI is almost certainly rated for 20A feed-thru, though (if it's not, it shouldn't be on a 20A circuit).
Your circuit is not dedicated, so no. It's not going to work (safely). If it were one light, I'd think about it but you have a lot more stuff there.
But does my existing GFCI socket provide 20 amps?
You have a specific section of code to cite that says you can't plug the motor of an above-ground pool, into a general purpose branch circuit? I would agree that depending on what else he has on that circuit, it could be an issue. And his pump when running will likely use about 75% of the circuit capacity. But I don't know of any rule that flat out says his pump must be on a dedicated circuit.
That part, that he's likely going to be close to the limits of a 20A circuit, I agree with. But if he has say 4 CFL bulbs, AFAIK, he's not violating NEC.
There is little likelihood that the circuit is on a dedicated 20 amp circuit unless it were originally installed to facilitate something like a Storable swimming pool.
Yes: pool vendor says dedicated 20 amp GFCI is required by manufacturer's 5-year warranty on the pool motor.
Original installation was for a storable pool (motor removed indoors in winter) with 15 amp standard GFCI. So it looks as if I will need to get someone to instal a 20 amp GFCI (perhaps on a different fuse breaker. One of our breakers apparently carries only basement baseboard heaters, not needed in swimming season, thus is available.
Thank you to all respondents.
Look at the label. If it says permanent pool pump, 210.23(A)(2) fills the bill if it is more than 50% of the circuit rating. Above ground pool could be either type but typically, if you don't blow it up, it is permanent. (rigid walls, prepared base etc) but the proof is on the pump label. Storable pool pumps will say that.
I missed the part about that in the original post. I guess if you want to split hairs, you could read the actual install manual. Should be available online. I suppose there is some chance that they only require it for the warranty to be valid, but the install gives you more leeway. From a warranty standpoint, what they are probably worried about is someone putting it on the end of a 100 ft 16 gauge extension cord and burning out the motor.
Another possibility. Are you locked into that pump? I'm sure you can find other 1 hp pool pumps that don't require a 20 amp dedicated circuit.
But at the end of the day, even if you find another pump, that you could use, if you put it on a circuit with other stuff on it, you probably have about 5 amps left for everything else.....
Does your municipality have a building inspector or electrical inspector? If so, contact them, or him/her. They will tell you what is allowed.
The
I didn't say you couldn't, dummy. I said that the motor requires 20A, so the circuit is full. I might stretch it with the stair light, or similar load, but not all the rest of that crap.
I've always said that you don't read worth a damn. More proof.
Yet you insist on showing how stupid you are.
Try reading before proving, once again, how stupid you really are.
...
See here we go again. I didn't get nasty. I didn't call you names. All I did was ask a simple question, which part of the code you were basing your answer on. What exactly is your problem?
This coming from the guy who made post after post about a "netural requirement" for ranges, ovens, etc., when there is no such requirement. Who despite being told by 3 electricians and an engineer that when you hook up an oven to 3 wires, it's the ground that gets tied to the existing neutral, still could not grasp that concept. Who said t that when we went from 3 wires for loads like that it was for adding a neutal. Of course everyone else knew that what was added was a seperate ground and that is the 4th wire. And of course despite being totally wrong on all of it, which RBM and Bud both told you, you got nasty and started calling me names. Your mother must be ashamed of you....
quoted text -
I missed the part where he said that a 20 amp "dedicated" circuit is required by the manufacturer. And I agreed that with the other loads he has, even if the motor uses 15A, which is what it should actually pull, he doesn't have much room left for the other loads and even under best case, he'd be close to the limit. In essence, I agreed with most of what you had to say, yet here you are going into attack mode. What exactly is your problem?
Try admitting you were wrong about the neutrals and ovens. You never did. After thoroughly making an ass of yourself, you just slithered away..... As usual.
Bullshit. You were trying to pick a fight. Hint: read next time.
Again, you prove that you can't read. ..and lie. You said that a neutral was *required* when it's the ground that is required. A neutral is only needed if there is an imbalance in the current (a 120V load in the 240V appliance). You kept spinning from there.
You're a damned liar but that's nothing new, either.
You really are a dumb liar.
You're an illiterate liar, is my problem. But you will never change.
More lies. I gave up trying to get you to read. It's an impossible task, obviously.
Now you're a mind reader too. I hope you don't have a gun. You'd go around shooting people because they might "pick a fight" when all they did was ask a question. Around here, you immediately get nasty and start with the name calling with anyone and everyone that dares ask a question or that disagrees with you.
There you go again. Calling me a liar, when in fact it was YOU who claimed there was a neutral requirement. Let me recap that discussion from the other thread so everyone can see who not only is dead wrong but also is the real LIAR. Following are the exchanges on the subject from that thread. A few current comments I make are preceeded by "note:"
Trader:
KRW: Wrong. Grounded cases have been around a *LOT* longer than the neutral requirement on (mostly) 240V appliances.
note: (This is the origin of the "neutral requirement" claim. It's the first time it came up and it was made by KRW. And besides that, krw says that what I posed was wrong. Every bit of it is true, as confirmed by RBM and Bud in what follows. It can also be verified by looking at a typical oven install manual)
Bud: An oven will not have a neutral unless it is needed. The supply circuit may have a neutral that is not needed by the oven if the oven does not have a neutral connection. Trader is clearly correct.
RBM: There is no "neutral requirement" on any 240 volt cooking equipment. This is where you (krw) seem to be confused. The manufacturer can choose to build a range that just uses 240 volt with ground. Most do not, they use both neutral and ground, and if so, and it's a new installation, the Nec requires a four wire feeder. If it's an existing feeder, and it's 3 wire, the Nec allows you to use it on a new four wire range, provided that it's acceptable with the manufacturer. Some manufacturers do require a four wire feeder, and will specify it in the instructions. The manufacturer doesn't trump the Nec. They are two separate entities.
Trader:
KRW:
RBM
if it's pre existing, is a 3 wire feeder which consists of 2 hot legs and 1 neutral, it is not a ground, it is a neutral. This neutral is allowed to s erve as a ground on cooking equipment and electric clothes dryers which use two hots, one neutral, and one ground.
KRW: The point being that the manufacturer's instructions trump these (NEC) rules. There are *many* cases where appliances have all four wires but they aren't necessary according to the instructions (neutral not required but available). Again, the manufacturer's instructions (and listings) override the NEC's "rules".
RBM: Not exactly, you do have two entities here, the manufacturer and the Nec. The Nec allows you to use an existing 3 wire feeder on cooking and electric clothes dryers. The manufacturer may or may not allow it. Some cooking appliances don't use a neutral, they are 240 volt with ground. The Nec doesn't require you to run the neutral for these
KRW: "My old one (oven) was that way. The neutral wasn't necessary but it was there. THere were instructions for wiring it to either 3-wire or
4-wire services. Clothes dryers are the same. There are *many* cases where appliances have all four wires but they aren't necessary according to the instructions (neutral not required but available). "Trader: So, if there are many cases, just show us one.....
KRW: Blow me. Look for yourself.
KRW::
note: (the value of no has been reduced over time, WTF?)
KRW: WRONG! A neutral is not needed when the load is 240V. The ground is
*ALWAYS* needed for safety. At one time it was legal to use three wires and the ground for a small current (timer, etc.).Bud: The ground is not used for small currents. Dryers often have 120V motors and those dryers need a neutral.
Trader:
KRW: Idiot.
note: (What I stated above is absolutely correct. Just look at any oven install manual)
Bud: Part of the problem is confusion between whether the supply circuit is being discussed or the oven. Trader has consistently got it right.
note: (note who Bud says has it right)
If there is a 3-wire circuit supply (that was compliant when installed) the supply neutral can be used as the neutral and ground for the oven. As RBM emphasizes, the supply neutral is used. These 3-wire supply circuits did not have a ground.
The ground is not used for small currents. Dryers often have 120V motors and those dryers need a neutral.
KRW:
:it is not *I* who is confused. The moron Trader is saying that the neutral is required. I agree with you. It is not.
note: (Now folks the above is a classic krw lie. Clearly KRW is the one who said there was a "neutral requirement". I never used the term. As for who's confused, we have RBM, Bud and Trader, electricians and electrical engineers in complete agreement. KRW to this day is still wandering in the wilderness.)
KRW: It's now a requirement if there are *any* 120V circuits (timers or convenience outlets, etc.).
note: (That's another real gem of ignorance. A neutral has always been a requirement if there are any 120V loads. KRW still doesn't understand that in an older 3 wire 240V circuit, the third wire WAS THE NEUTRAL.)
Folks can read your posts above and have a good laugh. If you like, we can have folks vote on who has it all wrong. So far it's 3 to 1 that you're wrong.
Or perhaps you'd like to just man-up and admit you got it wrong and apologize.
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