Please recommend a backyard hot tub

Hi, I live in the north east and I am going to install a hot tub in my backyard. Please recommend a 3-4 person hot tub.

My primary concerns are: Durabaility: Alot of things can go wrong with a hot tub, I'd like to buy one that runs reliably with the least maintenance. Good insualtion: to keep monthly electrisity costs low.

Thanks!

Reply to
sir.m.messervy
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Little story:

"2nd happiest day of my life was the day I bought my boat. The happiest day of my life was the day I sold my boat."

"Boat" can be replaced with "Hot Tub" or "Pool Table".

I would buy an indoor Jacuzzi Bath Tub.

Hot tubs are a hassle to keep the water clean and balanced. Heating the water is another story.

I had a hot tub and sold it after 1 year. It had several problems but I learned that I don't want a stand alone hot tub. My "new" house (been here 6 years now) has a pool with a hot tub attached to the pool, and water maintenance is a breeze. It has to do with the volume of water. For some reason large volumes of water are much easier to keep clean and balanced. When the tub gets "dirty", for lack of a better word, I can dump the water into the pool and start fresh.

If you do get an electric HT make sure it's a 220 volt. A 110 volt will kill you with electric bills. If there is anyway you can get natural gas that is the way to go.

YMMV

od

Reply to
olddog

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: ...

...

Paint a stock tank black and put it in the sun...

--

Reply to
dpb

I just joined the hot-tub crowd last October. bought a $600 tub off Craigslist- replaced a pump [$200] and a heating element [$30].

I did the wrestling & electrical work. You'll need a 50-60 amp 220v GFCI box installed. [I agree with the olddog that you're nuts to try

110] I also added some insulation to my 6-8 yr old Thermospa.

I've got about $1000 invested in the tub itself. Another couple hundred in wiring and spa breaker- and another couple hundred in test kit & chemicals.

The electrical use might be $30 a month. I've been tempted to buy a separate meter, but haven't yet. I keep it at 101degress 24/7.

I use it every day. My wife might join me once a week. Friends come over use it once a month or so. We've had a pool for 20 yrs. From Oct-May this hot tub has gotten more use than the pool did in any 24 month period..

How about a forum where you can read till your eyes fall out-

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Check out both the Hot tub side- and the chemistry side.

I'm happy with mine- but I can certainly see the folks who recommend 'wet testing' any tub, regardless of brand or model.

I was amazed at how simple they are. They can leak. silicone cures that. Pumps die. They are pretty cheap. Heaters die- they are even cheaper. Electronic panels can fail- but they aren't all that much on some of the simpler tubs. I just replaced a jet on my old Thermospa-- $15. [the simpler ones are $5]

Covers fail & they can cost $4-500.

My instinct was to think the ones encased in foam were the best insulated. Thank goodness I didn't go that way- mine is insulated with 2" of rigid polystyrene on the walls, bubble foil on the bottom, and a decent 3" cover. Our power went out for 5 days last Dec & the temp dropped to the teens, but the water never came close to

50degrees.

I *disagree* with olddog on the amount of work. I test mine every couple of days now. [I did it daily for 4 months] It has never gotten out of hand. I use Chlorine with every use, shock weekly & I change my filter once a month [ I rotate through 3 filters], and have changed the water once.

Less work than the pool- no back flushing, no vacuuming, no skimming & no liner to puncture.

Jim

Reply to
Jim Elbrecht

or for night-time use;

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fire and beer]

Jim

Reply to
Jim Elbrecht

i have a bengal river spa that says its for 6 but 4 is more realistic. i've had it for 8 years now and no problems out of warranty it circulates 24/7 so water maintenance is not that bad. i also have it set under a second floor deck so its pretty much covered all the time. this manufactuer states it's the best insulated and my guess is it costs about $10 maybe $15 a month on 220v.

Reply to
C.D

My experience has been exactly the opposite. I've had a hot tub/spa for 20+ years now and the experience has been excellent. The first 10 years, I had it inside. For the last 13, it's been located outside. In both cases, I found it very easy to maintain. I change the water about every 2-3 months. After the initial fill, I just keep the dissolving tabs in a floating dispenser and the water pretty much stays in the correct range.

I also have a jacuzzi tub in the house, which I never use. If I had a choice, I'd definitely go with the hot tub, as I think it's far more functional and you can share it.

While most spas are 240V and there are big advantages for going that way, saving on electric usage is not one of them. You are paying for power, and except for some tiny losses in the wiring delivering the power, the amount of power to run and heat the spa is going to be the same with either 240V or 120V. The biggest disadvantages to 120V is that they are built to use a 20 amp outlet, so:

1 - the heater cannot be on at the same time the pump is on high, meaning to use the jets, the spa won't be heating anymore while you're using it 2 - the heating capacity is 1/4 what it is at 240V, so it takes 4X as long to heat it up. That can be a major factor if you have it outside all year and want to keep the temp down, then cycle it up before using it.

I've yet to see a 3-4 person, small home hot tub/spa that uses natural gas.

Reply to
trader4

My experience has been exactly the opposite. I've had a hot tub/spa for 20+ years now and the experience has been excellent. The first 10 years, I had it inside. For the last 13, it's been located outside. In both cases, I found it very easy to maintain. I change the water about every 2-3 months. After the initial fill, I just keep the dissolving tabs in a floating dispenser and the water pretty much stays in the correct range.

I also have a jacuzzi tub in the house, which I never use. If I had a choice, I'd definitely go with the hot tub, as I think it's far more functional and you can share it.

While most spas are 240V and there are big advantages for going that way, saving on electric usage is not one of them. You are paying for power, and except for some tiny losses in the wiring delivering the power, the amount of power to run and heat the spa is going to be the same with either 240V or 120V. The biggest disadvantages to 120V is that they are built to use a 20 amp outlet, so:

1 - the heater cannot be on at the same time the pump is on high, meaning to use the jets, the spa won't be heating anymore while you're using it 2 - the heating capacity is 1/4 what it is at 240V, so it takes 4X as long to heat it up. That can be a major factor if you have it outside all year and want to keep the temp down, then cycle it up before using it.

I've yet to see a 3-4 person, small home hot tub/spa that uses natural gas.

+++++++++++++++++

Really....hummmm

look up YMMV

but thanks

od

Reply to
olddog

My experience has been exactly the opposite. I've had a hot tub/spa for 20+ years now and the experience has been excellent. The first 10 years, I had it inside. For the last 13, it's been located outside. In both cases, I found it very easy to maintain. I change the water about every 2-3 months. After the initial fill, I just keep the dissolving tabs in a floating dispenser and the water pretty much stays in the correct range.

I also have a jacuzzi tub in the house, which I never use. If I had a choice, I'd definitely go with the hot tub, as I think it's far more functional and you can share it.

While most spas are 240V and there are big advantages for going that way, saving on electric usage is not one of them. You are paying for power, and except for some tiny losses in the wiring delivering the power, the amount of power to run and heat the spa is going to be the same with either 240V or 120V. The biggest disadvantages to 120V is that they are built to use a 20 amp outlet, so:

1 - the heater cannot be on at the same time the pump is on high, meaning to use the jets, the spa won't be heating anymore while you're using it 2 - the heating capacity is 1/4 what it is at 240V, so it takes 4X as long to heat it up. That can be a major factor if you have it outside all year and want to keep the temp down, then cycle it up before using it.

I've yet to see a 3-4 person, small home hot tub/spa that uses natural gas.

A little more info:

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One reason my 120 volt ht cost more to run was because I had to keep it hot

24/7.

It took about 48 hours to heat it up after filling. With gas I can heat my ht up in about 2 or 3 hours on a warm day.

The only reason I'd use elec over gas would be if gas wasn't available. You maybe looking at a narrow range of ht. I'm not sure what you are talking about with jets and heater at the same time? My gas ht runs both and it's small.

YMMV

od

Reply to
olddog

Joining in late, but....

I bought a standalone 6-bod hot tub about five years ago, a Marquis brand floor model (no affiliation). I've been pretty happy with it.

It's an all-electric 240V 50A unit. The tub is installed outdoors here in northern Utah. Winter temps average 25-30 degrees, while we keep the tub at

102. Based on my excessively anal recordkeeping, my my average monthly electric bill has increased by $1.57 since we installed the tub -- but who's to say if that's all in the tub or something else in the house? It sure isn't enough to worry about.

One of my tub's two pump motors failed just before the 3yr warranty expired. I have been waiting for the other one to pop, but so far so good. AIUI, these pump motors are industry standard units, can generally be rebuilt and/or traded as a core, and anyone who's handy with a wrench should be able to replace one (including moving the pump unit itself to the new motor) without too much trouble.

A few months ago the tub developed a rather spectacular leak where the plumbing attaches to the heater tube. The seals are a sort of soft rubbery plastic, and had deteriorated to something that resembled plumber's putty. They were only a couple bucks each and not hard to install, but I wonder what caused them to rot like that.

Other than that, routine maintenance items, about $20 a month for chemicals, filters, and mineral cartridges. I hit it with a little chlorine every time we use it, shock it once a week or so, and change the water every three months. That's about as easy as it gets, but well worth the investment IMO.

Reply to
usenet-659f31de7f953aeb

Well...if you really believe you can run a ht daily at 102 on $1.57/mth I've got a bridge to sell you. :-) Do you have solar panels or a wind turbine?

Could it be the chlorine?

If I remember correctly we had to use bromine because of the liner. We were assured that bromine was better too. Like I said, I may have gotten bad advice because now that I'm using chlorine I agree; it doesn't get much easier.

I'm sure there are lots of "success stories" with these new ht that are available. All I know is the experience I had with a stand alone elec ht turned into a nightmare. No doubt because it was a 120 volt and the chemicals I was using. Which was the gist of my OP

Don't get me wrong, I love my "gas" ht. I can run it nightly and my gas bill is always reasonable. Usually never over $30/mth. Sometimes as low as $12. Now heating the pool is a different story.

I think if you do an internet search on gas vs elec ht's the data will back me up.

od

Reply to
olddog

For the record, an in-ground pool is very little work these days. There is no back-flushing, no vacuuming, no skimming, and no liner to puncture.

-Use a 4-cartridge filter. You only have to clean it once a year.

-Use a high end self-contained pool cleaner (no hoses) rather than one of the pressure or suction side cleaners that depend on the main pump (or have their own pump). This makes a huge difference in keeping the pool clean.

-The skimmer is built in.

-Concrete pools have no liner.

-Chlorination is via a tablet feeder or a chlorine generator.

The biggest hassle with a pool for me is that the chlorinator tablets have so much cyanuric acid as a stabilizer that the cyanuric acid level goes up to too high a level rendering the chlorine ineffective. Liquid chlorine is more of a hassle, but it doesn't have this nasty side-effect.

Reply to
SMS

I assume that you are indeed talking about a redwood, rather than fiberglass, tub. If so, be aware that is critical to keep the water chemistry within the specified range. This is particularly true with chlorine. If the chlorine in a wood tub goes too high, it destroys the cell structure of the wood in contact with the water. The wood surface then gets a "fuzz" on it that is very difficult to remove.

You cannot do a chlorine shock treatment on a wood tub for this reason.

I owned a redwood tub when I lived in San Diego in the early 1980s and will never own one again.

Reply to
Caesar Romano

No, no home power, but you're correct, my spreadsheet formulas were wrong. But it doesn't tell the whole story anyway: my average power bill went up by $5.56 after installing the tub, but the kWh cost of power increased as well, and they recently added a $4/mo city surcharge to the bill that I haven't factored out. Then, my actual power consumption has gone *down* by 82 kWh/mo since we got the tub! So there's a lot of hidden factors in there, including learning how to manage our overall household power consumption. But it seems plain to me that the electrical cost of running a hot tub is easily lost in the noise.

The heat of being attached to the stainless steel heater tube? I think it odd that the manufacturer, who knows exactly what physical and chemical attacks to expect (they do recommend chlorine) would install seals that are prone to failure under those conditions.

I haven't used bromine myself. I understand that it's incompatible with the silver/copper mineral cartridges. Oh, I forgot to mention that my tub also has an UV ozone sterilizer, which failed once under warranty. Between the UV and the minerals, some say that chlorine is actually unnecessary, just an occasional non-chor shock. Frankly I *like* the chlorine, it smells like a proper hot tub to me. :)

Reply to
usenet-659f31de7f953aeb

I'm a very long time Hot Tub and Japanese Bath owner. In New England, the electric for a modest sized 240 v tub is currently about $35-$40 a month when averaged over a full year. Less in summer, more in winter.

Reply to
salty

You must get a pretty sweet deal on kWh. Our elec bills here are tied into our city bill which seems to include the cost of the air we breath.

It would be interesting to put your tub on a usage meter. Sounds like it's using less amps than a coffee maker, which can be pretty expensive.

If I remember correctly, when I bought my 120v ht, the spa store made claims of low energy consumption that didn't hold true. But you know how memory is. It's probably not quite as bad as I remember.

The smell of chlorine doesn't bother me. The effect of it on the environment can be pretty bad. I try to do my backwashes before shocks to minimize the damage.

I think you said you spend $20/mth on maintenance. I probably spend about $120/year on an expensive year, for the pool and the ht, but I have a sand filter so I don't have to buy filters.

When I bought my 1st ht the UV ozone things were available but I heard later they weren't that effective. Wouldn't they increase the elec bill too?

Glad you enjoy your tub. I use mine because of an old back injury. After a hard day there isn't anything more refreshing. But if anyone asks me I still say get a gas ht, and it's much better if it's attached to your pool.

od

Reply to
olddog

How can a coffee maker be pretty expensive? They only draw around

1000W when making coffee and that lasts 5 mins or so at most a couple times a day. After that, even if you leave it in warming mode for a couple hours, that's more like a 75 or 100 watt load. The large loads in a house are things like the AC, running the heating blower, cooking.

I do agree that $5.50 a month sounds low for running a hot tub. But I don't believe it's all that high either. I don't notice any major swings in my electric bill during periods when it's been offline for whatever reason, versus when it's in service. But then I also keep mine set way down in temp and just raise the temp in advance of using it.

BTW, thanks for pointing out the gas heated ones. You also raised a question in another post about my comment about 120V spas not being able to run the pump on high and the heater at the same time. That is due to the fact that they run off a 20 amp circuit, which will not support both at the same time. While heating, the pump runs on low, to just circulate the water. If you switch it to high to activate the jets, the heating gets turned off by the controller. With 240V you not only have more power due to the voltage, but typically the circuits run are 40 or 50 amps.

Reply to
trader4

How can a coffee maker be pretty expensive? They only draw around

1000W when making coffee and that lasts 5 mins or so at most a couple times a day. After that, even if you leave it in warming mode for a couple hours, that's more like a 75 or 100 watt load. The large loads in a house are things like the AC, running the heating blower, cooking.

I do agree that $5.50 a month sounds low for running a hot tub. But I don't believe it's all that high either. I don't notice any major swings in my electric bill during periods when it's been offline for whatever reason, versus when it's in service. But then I also keep mine set way down in temp and just raise the temp in advance of using it.

BTW, thanks for pointing out the gas heated ones. You also raised a question in another post about my comment about 120V spas not being able to run the pump on high and the heater at the same time. That is due to the fact that they run off a 20 amp circuit, which will not support both at the same time. While heating, the pump runs on low, to just circulate the water. If you switch it to high to activate the jets, the heating gets turned off by the controller. With 240V you not only have more power due to the voltage, but typically the circuits run are 40 or 50 amps.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

I was thinking about your post and I had come to the same conclusion and I realized I didn't understand exactly what you were talking about.

Expensive is a relative term. Coffee makers are one of the larger energy consumers in your house. So relative to say a TV or a light bulb it's expensive. If you leave it on after brewing it burns watts while it burns your coffee. Which is why I turn mine off after brewing and use a thermos.

Which is the point about 120 vs. 240. 120s have to left on constantly while the 240s can be put on a timer to heat up at some point so it will be ready.

If I bought a new tub I'd look into gas. They heat faster and they are cheaper to operate. You may not be able to pick one up at Costco or HD but that's because they are not as easy to install and gas isn't available everywhere. IMHO it's worth the extra effort and that is speaking from experience. But personally I wouldn't buy another stand alone ht. I'd go with the indoor Jacuzzi tub. YMMV

In my OP I said don't get a 110v (well 120v) and opt for the 240v if you have to go elec. I guess I don't see your point anymore. If you're arguing elec is cheaper than gas, common sense says your wrong.

od

Reply to
olddog

You guys are both crazy. My hot tub has a 240 volt heater that, when running, draws as much as an oven broiler. There is a good reason why you need a dedicated 50 amp 240 volt circuit for a hot tub. On mine, the heater runs for 2 one hour periods every 24 hours during filtering whether I use the tub or not. That also involves the running of a 2 hp pump motor. Whenever the heater runs, that pump is on. These items also both run whenever they are needed to maintain the set temperature. It's a quite significant power draw.

As I have pointed out, it easily equates to $35-40 a month averaged over a year in New England. Now that rates are higher, it's probably more than that.

That's the reality.

Reply to
salty

Also note that 50 amps at 240 is roughly equal to 100 amps at 120 volts. It's a BIG load.

Reply to
salty

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