Piggy-backing new 125v outlet on existing 250v outlet?

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Note the words "on it." I suppose it would be legal to plug a fridge into one of those outlets, if you didn't remove the old unit. If you removed the front door of the old oven, would it still be legal to plug the fridge into one of the 120 V outlets? Probably so. And if you removed the range top? Probably so. And if you removed the racks in the oven? Probably so. And if you removed everything else you could unbolt or cut off, leaving only the outlets, dangling by wires...? :-)

Essentially duplicating what was on the old unit, with no change in the existing level of safety. I wonder if there's some way to improve the level of safety with something like a gfi, with no new wiring...
Nick
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If you care to check, the outlet(s) on the old stove had their own 15 amp fuses in the stoves fuse panel to protect the wiring and outlet, what you propose will not have such fuse protection.

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There were a couple of fuses downstream of the junction box on the ol pullman unit, so it seems likely that at least one was for the 120 outlets. I still need both 240v for the cooktop and 120v for th fridge. The outlet box is in a cabinet under the sink. Would it b better to install a one breaker mini-panel with a 15 amp breaker unde the sink between the 240v outlet and the 120v outlets? I live in the U Virgin Islands and the standards are quite a bit lower than back in th states. I seriously doubt that an inspector will ever see this wirin and I suspect they would not have a problem with it if they did
-- Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- JimE's Profile: http://www.homeplot.com/member.php?userid=5 View this thread: http://www.homeplot.com/showthread.php?t175
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On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:28:20 -0400, JimE

== warning non-expert rambling = Wouldn't the main concern be to protect the 120V outlet with a suitably-rated breaker? As another poster pointed out, the outlets in the range were presumably protected by 15A fuses or breakers.
Any reason you can't replace the original dual breaker with two 15A singles? You could even break the link between the hots on the outlet, and feed each half of the duplex socket with a different circuit that way. Seems to me the result would be essentially equivalent to what they specify for kitchen outlets these days. Or just put in one 15A breaker and let the other leg be dead.
If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will let me know. :-)
-=s
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Electrically, it would probably (but not necessarily - see 4) work, but code takes precidence. Unless you're feeling lucky.
How does this violate code? Let us count the ways:
1) Old-style 3-wire dryer circuits: have a combination ground and neutral. Running a 120V circuit (or indeed, ground on _anything_ other than a 3-wire stove or dryer) from a combined ground and neutral is a code no-no and potentially lethal - that's why 3-wire stove and dryer circuits are "old style" and are prohibited in new construction.
[In fact, if you rework the circuit, code-wise you need to upgrade to 4wire. Might as well run a new 120V circuit instead of screwing with the 240V circuit.]
2) New-style 4-wire dryer circuits: simply tapping off a 120V circuit means that you have what's tantamount to a 15A or 20A 120V circuit breakered at 30A. Code no-no.
Secondly, this is being used as a "multi-wire" branch circuit. Code prohibits mixtures of 240V and 120V devices on the same multi-wire branch (the dryer is treated as a single device obviously).
Thus, regardless of 3 or 4 wire, it still violates code, so asking which it is is irrelevant.
3) To be legal circuit-breakering/"mixture of 240V and 120V"-wise on a 4-wire circuit, you'd have to put in a breaker for the 120V tap, and treat the circuit as a subfeed. Only legal if it's four wire. May _not_ be sufficient to avoid the "do not mix" provisions. See (4) too.
By the time you buy the breaker, housing, and cut up the walls, it'll likely cost just as much if not more than running a new 120V feed or tapping off something else for the washer.
4) Modern separate dryer/washers are likely to draw considerably more power when operated simultaneously than a combo washer/dryer (even a stacked) unit.
Adding the washer to the dryer circuit is likely to break the 80% ampacity code rule, and perhaps even trip the breaker. Ie: 4800W dryer element plus a few amps @ 120V for the dryer motor, then add a largish washer motor on one of the 240V legs - especially if you didn't trace the appliance wiring and arranged the washer motor to be on the opposite leg from the dryer motor.
Best case you only violate the 80% code rule. Good chance of tripping the breaker.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
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Chris Lewis wrote:

He did say in the original message that it was a 4-wire circuit (it was a subtle reference; he said "14-30R")
Best regards, Bob
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Despite having written the electrical wiring FAQ, I don't keep the plug/receptacle specs in my head. Sigh. Oops ;-)
Still bad of course ;-)
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
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Thanks for all the responses, guys. My electrician won't do it if it doesn't meet code, so I guess the 240V tap isn't an option. One last question, please -- Would it violate code to add the new 120V outlet for the washer to the existing 15A GFCI circuit in the bathroom? (As long as I don't plug in a hair dryer at the same time) The washer is rated for a 15A circuit with a max current of 12A and steady state of 8A. Anyway, thanks again. --- John

The
a
Thanks! ---

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Q: "Would it violate code to add the new 120V outlet for the washer to the existing 15A GFCI circuit in the bathroom? (As long as I don't plug in a hair dryer at the same time) "
A: 2002 NEC, CH7, subpart (d) pp. 6, para. 2: It shall be allowed that anyone may connect whatever additional devices they wish to an existing GFCI circuit; provided that (a) the GFCI circuit is in a bathroom, and (b) the GFCI circuits is rated at 15 amperes. This shall be allowed only if a hairdryer is not plugged into the existing circuit. Looks like you are in luck.
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Thanks for the reference! LOL
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John wrote:

Yes it would violate the US NEC. Both Laundry Circuits and bathroom basin receptacle outlets must have a separate circuit to supply them. The nature of the two uses is such that overloading is nearly inevitable. -- Tom H
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