PEX - Using hose clamps

[alvinamorey]

OK, I posted about PEX clamping. I made the mistake of stating my opinion about it, which is not in favor of it. Thus the whole discussion thread went in that direction and the original point of my post was lost.

So, I am posting it again, with the intended question.

1. There are two types of PEX Clamping Tools (Crimp Tools) and two types of crimp bands being sold. One is just a solid metal ring that somehow (magically) shrinks when the tool is applied. The other looks more like a common auto hose clamp minus the screw, and requires a different tool. Which is better?

1. Why cant someone just use a common hose clamp? Hose clamps are a tad bit more costly for the actual clamp, but the average DIY homeowner is not going to spend 0 (or even ) for the tool to do one job. In the end, hose clamps are cheaper if the cost of the tool is included. Better yet, hose clamps are easily removed and replaced. It would seem to me that they would actually be better. I am surprised they are not just used overall, even by plumbers, with their only drawback being that stupid homeowners can loosen them and cause problems. Hose clamps have been used exclusively for underground plastic black pipe (I cant recall the type of pipe that is) where people have wells, and they work well.

I'm sure that in time there will be cheap generic crimp tools being sold that only cost $19.99, but even at that, everyone owns a screwdriver and with hose clamps being readily available, easy to install, and much easier to remove than the PEX clamps now being sold, why not just use hose clamps?

[Mamba]

The Pex clamps I used (see links in my other posting) were actually easier and faster than hose clamps. The point about the tool cost is valid, I paid about $100 for mine. I know the ratchet style operation will not release until you get to the correct tension for the clamp, then it will not let you go further. This calibration makes the use idiotproof, which would be a boon to many folks working with plumbing (at least Pex).

The one advantage of a pipe clamp might be that you can add one around an installed conection, with the Pex clamp you need to remember to slide it onto the tubing before fasterning to the connector. It's surprisingly tough to pull the Pex off the connector in tight spots.

So if you object to purchasing a tool specially designed for the job, try pipe clamps. I spent $100 on the tool, it took me 5-6 seconds to do each clamp connection, and I had zero leaks in maybe 100 connectors throughout the place. I had to take off some clamps when I plumbed a valve wrong and also when I retrofitted a water filter. They are extremely easy to remove with a good set of snips. Just remember to position the crimp to make it available to get teh snips on. Not all Pex clamps I have seen work the same way, but these ones were a snap.

IMHO, the tool was worth it for me, maybe not for everybody. The plastic clamps you described in your other post would give me absolute nightmares.

Cheers Gary

[George]

Because PEX isn't a hose. It is a permanent plumbing system which frequently is concealed. Crimp connections produce reliable and repeatable results.

[Don Young]

Because you can't get near enough pressure to properly secure the stiff PEX tubing. One pretty good way to have trouble with something like that is to not install it properly. The proper clamps and tools are crucial to long term reliability. A hose clamp will probably work initially.

Don Young

[samurai]

Crimp hold much better, sorry I can't quantify a value. Easier to install, faster. Don't prtrude, so it is possible to pull them through rafters and openings without catching too much.

Hose clamps do not have the holding strength, they are easy to strip, and don't last as long. They also take longer to install. I've replaced many on my vehicles, just because they've failed.

samurai.

[BobK207]

OP-

I agree, the questions in your original post got neglected as the thread drifted "off topic"

Before I made the jump from copper to PEX I had some of the same questions & concerns that you have.

The tool were really expensive!

I was concerned about using any crimps rings...if the rings corroded the connection would fail.

I chose to use the expansion system....no crimp rings.

So to answer your Question 1: Which is better? IMO, neither, crimp rings are not a good choice. I recommend using the expansion tool & compatible fittings.

Question 2: >>>Why cant someone just use a common hose clamp?

[alvinamorey]

I never said anything about plastic clamps. I am referring to stainless steel hose clamps used to connect (for example) a gas line to a fuel pump or carb in a car.

I will agree that the tool is probably quicker than turning a screw on a hose clamp, but if it takes me 20 seconds to turn a screw V/S the 5 seconds you spend, that's real minor compared to the cost of the tool. Lets say you install 50 clamps. That would be 250 seconds with the tool, (or 4+ minutes), or 1000 seconds (16+ minutes) with screw clamps. That's 12 minutes difference. I'd have to earn hundreds of dollars per hour to justify that. Sure, this will pay off for a plumber, but not a homeowner. Actually, for myself, owning the tool will actually pay to own because I am always doing some sort of plumbing for myself or others. But for rthe average homeowner, it wont pay at all if screw type hose clamps are the other option.

How you can cut them with a snips without cutting into the pipe itself is beyond me. The problem starts when there are several clamp styles available. I'd like to see the ones you use. Please post a photo or web link to one. The ones I originally saw were just solid rings, like a wedding ring, with nothing sticking out. Now I have seen the ones with the tabs on the side that look like a hose clamp without the screw and are probably stainless steel.

Like another poster said, will PEX become another situation like aluminum wiring? And even if the pipe itself is durable and long lasting, there is still no standard with the clamps. There are several types. So even if I do decide to buy the tool, I'll wait till they come up with a standard, or I may end up using Beta tapes when everyone is using VHS, and end up with a costly useless tool.

THIS MESSAGE WAS APPROVED BY GOD

[BobK207]

OP-

Check out the expander system......tools can be had reasonably on Ebay

I bought a hand expander w/ 1/2", 3/4" & 1" expander tips.

At first I was worried that the hand expander was going to be too slow. But even with the hand expander I can easily make a PEX connection faster than I can clean 1/2 of a copper joint. With the home run design I had 32 (total) PEX joints for 2 baths, kitchen & laundry room.

Plumbers use the pneumatic or battery powered expander......they are a little faster but its mostly for ease of use (read: reliable and repeatable)

The comparison of crimp rings to screw hose clamps is NOT speed.................it is reliable and repeatable results.

PEX is not (at this point) a DIY product unless you know what you're doing.

So if the tools are a barrier to DIY use of PEX maybe that's not a bad thing.

Consider the expander system (WIrsbo PEX), they've been around a long time & they sell tons of PEX. The expander system has been around for a long time & the installed base of tools is pretty extensive.

I doubt its going the way of BetaMax

See if you can borrow or even just see it being used. Make up some joints & play with them. They're strong...just use the brass fittings not the plastic onesss.

I was skeptical when I first was considering the PEX expander system. When I got my suuplies & tools, I made up some joints. I tried to blow them up with my compressor. I pressured the PEX & even put in hot water.

Couldn't get anything to fail. Of course I only went to 110 psi & probably about 120F.

I was satisfies, PEX is a clean easy system.

About PEX becoming the next "aluminim wiring" problem. I had a friend (a builder) tell me about PEX ~10 years ago when he was leaving CA for TX. I haven't heard any horror stories (yet).

cheers Bob

[Bob F]

This is a great idea, as long as you don't mind leaks in your wall a day, a year, or 10 years, after you put it together.

Why not just buy your materials from a reliable plumbing supply place that will rent you the tool for a day. Put everything in place, and then get the tool and assemble the connectors in a few hours.

Bob

[Mamba]

I was refer " I wonder how many pounds of pressure those plastic fittings will handle."

Perhaps I misinterpreted what you were talking about?

The links to the clamps :

The slightly raised area becomes compressed and pinches up, making it easy to snip if removal is required. Rather ingenious actually.

The tool:

Easy to use ratchet style compression tool. Foolproof.

Another poster refered to the Pex expander tool. AFAIK, this version has a "beak" that fits inside the plain connector collars and expands them, then you quickly slip them on over tube/connector where they retract for compression. I asked about these at the plumbing shop where I got my materials. The very savvy guy there suggested that system required a lot more muscle power than the tool I bought. I believe his quote included the term "Popeye arms" ;-)

To be honest, it sounds like you just don't beleive Pex would ever be as good as copper. Everybody's entitled to their opinion.

My opinion (based on comparative use) is that it's easy, safe and dependable with this clamp/tool system.

Cheers Gary

[BobK207]

Gary-

I was concerned about the muscle power required as well...BEFORE using the tool.

The Wirsbo hand expander is effortless...a little awkward until you get the hang of it but really only very minor muscle power needed.

more muscle power than the tool I bought. I believe his quote included the term "Popeye arms" ;-)

[Noozer]

If you want a hack job, then use a hose clamp.

I know that a hose clamp will NEVER be as strong as the crimp ring used on PEX.

Also, you are not supposed to reuse a PEX joint, so if you cut the ring off, you will need to clip the end off the hose as well.

[Oren]

nuf said...

The clamp would strip/break first :)

This is detailed in the material for my PEX system...now ten years old.

-- Oren

"I wouldn't even be here if my support group hadn't beaten me up."

[Mamba]

Tnx

I haven't tried it myself (the Wirsbo tool). The OP had a question about how to remove one if required. Is the clamp a sinple ring-type collar? If so, how would you remove one if necessary?

[Oren]

Use a Dremel tool (proper blade) to cut a diagonal slice on the ring side. Peel away enough to remove the ring.

-- Oren

"I wouldn't even be here if my support group hadn't beaten me up."

[BobK207]

Gary-

In the expander system there is no clamp.

The expander system uses a "doubler" ring (just a plain thick walled ring) that is slipped over the end of the PEX tube. The tube & double ring are both expanded using the expansion tool. When in the expanded state the combo is slipped over the fitting.

The key to system is the "shape memory" of the PEX tube & doubler ring. They "relax" back onto the fitting creating a tight seal. Pretty amazing.

Yeah, I was skeptical. I researched & worried. I played with it when I got it.

Is the OP calling this system the "plastic clamp"?

Anyway the joint can be "undone" using a utility knife. Carefully shave the ring, once you're through the ring it can be peeled off. Next shave the PEX tube....if you want to re-use the fitting, DO NOT scratch or score the fitting. When you shave through more than 1/2 the tube you can, by hand, pry / wrench the tube free of the fitting.

I did it in a couple of locations to "re-wire" my manifold.

If you don't need to re-use the fitting just cut the tube.

check out

cheers Bob

[larry moe 'n curly]

I think it's because those clamps don't apply even pressure all around the hose because the clamp is distorted where its screw fits. It's also possible that their screws work loose (one brand of clamp had a screw lock to prevent this). I have a heater hose fitting on my car that's a lot more likely to leak when I use a screw hose clamp rather than the factory flat spring steel clamp, even though the latter doesn't seem to clamp as tightly. Also I've read that air conditioner hoses for cars have to be crimped for systems that use leak-prone R-134a refrigerant rather than the old and now-illegal R-12, and one FAQ about making those crimp connections recommended actually measuring the crimps every 60 degrees with a micrometer o make sure they were perfectly round. Sure, household plumbing connections aren't the same as A/C or heater hose connections, but then the latter two aren't buried underground or inside walls and aren't expected to last decades without maintenance.

[a]

If you think compressing a small cylinder of copper is "magic" ... ho boy...

Don't know - I used the solid ones.

Because they're not as strong? Because they're not even? Because you can over *and* under-tighten them? (How can you tell if they're the right pressure?) Because they can work loose? Because they're not designed to be used with PEX? Because they're *more* expensive than the little copper rings?

Pretty much everyone owns a pair of Vice Grips too:

Did you miss that link in the previous thread? At around 50 crimpings, you'll save the cost of the crimper because you're not buying 50 hose clamps!

Who cares? When has "ease of removability" ever been a goal in plumbing? Seriously - that's just asking for leaks.

than the PEX clamps now being sold,

Forget about it... just go to Home Depot and pay $20 for 50' of PEX, grab some fittings and some hose clamps...

Let us know how it goes. For the time and energy you and others have put into this (and other) thread(s), you could have tried the hose clamps on a small project already! Whaddya got to loose? Remember the hose clamps are easy to remove right?

a

[aplumbernamedlee]

Notice that all responses had nothing to do with engineering or anything scientific such as psi or loads etc.. Why don't all of you brilliant plumbers do a simple test! Buy a 50 cent piece of pex (you already have some lying around) and a pex elbow for the correct diameter (probably have one of those al well) and then attach the elbow using a standard stainless steel hose clamp! Now try to remove it by force, and you can exert more force by hand than any lateral sheer force exerted by water flowing through the pex (I've already tried it and I can't budge the fitting) and you'll not be able to remove! Doubt you've done as much plumbing work as you say or you'd know that securing fittings in tight spaces especially in remodel jobs can be hard and pex tools do not help that any but a screwdriver fits almost anywhere! A ten cent hose clamp from Harbor Freight Tools will work fine and can be removed in the future without damaging the pex! Would love to hear from an engineer about the foolishness of the above claims!

[clare]

A "ten cent hose clamp from Harbor Frieght" does not clamp uniformly around the hose, and partucularly on relatively hard PEX I would never trust one. A more expensive "full circle" clamp as used for fuel injection hoses MIGHT be acceptable, as it applies the same clamping pressire all the way around the connection.