Paint - still with the 'brush strokes' !!

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Ok, guys, here's the challenge: What to do to prevent brush strokes. And, don't tell me roll it on, because that just makes the 'brush' strokes different, less controllable, and a giant mess if not careful.
Problem: After painting, the wall looks like corduroy! Using 'high quality' paint from Dunn Edwards. I'm fighting brush strokes like gang busters! Perhaps, it is because the paint is a bit tacky within 10 seconds, and 'dry' to the touch within a minute !! No wonder the paint can't flatten BEFORE it's dry!
Actions to date: I added Floetrol, from Home Depot. That, just changed the color a bit. and cost a lot. Seems like coating the wall with Floetrol and a little paint. I added Glass Cleaner, cheap from Walmart, Not bad, getting closer. Almost works. Have not tried adding a bit of distilled water, yet.
Background: Consider the Dunn Edwards paint left by the painters circa 2010 - use sparingly, keep for perfect matching, call it Paint A Also, consider the 'new' Dunn Edwards paint same color, but they admit to 'slight' change in color nomenclature, call it Paint B.
Smell of Paint A is pungent, rarely have to stir it in its 5 gal bucket, and NEVER leaves a paint stroke. That stuff comes out FLAT!
Smell of Paint B is pungent [but different], have to stir each day before use, and ALWAYS leaves paint strokes.
Need a solution: What I need is a 'wetting' chemical that makes/allows the paint to go flat BEFORE it dries. Should I add Jet-Dri?
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On Thursday, August 22, 2013 10:30:21 AM UTC-4, Robert Macy wrote:

I don't know what you mean by that. Rollers don't leave brush strokes. They can leave roller ridges, but with a good paint and decent technique it isn't hard to avoid. If you're painting areas where a roller can be used, I don't know of any pros that would use a brush, except to cut-in first. Because they leave a more consistent, mark free surface over areas where they can be use is one reason why they are used.

I've never heard of adding that to paint.
cheap from Walmart, Not bad, getting closer.

What does Dunn Edwards say to add. All the latex paints I've used say they can be thinned with water if necessary. It's kind of interesting you'd put glass cleaner in it, but for water you want to use distilled?
If the paint is too thick, then it will not have time to flow correctly for the brush or roller marks to disappear. And if you're having these kinds of problems with that brand right out of the can with new paint, I'd go to another brand. I've used Benj Moore recently and right out of the can, it's thick but it definitely flows fine and doesn't leave marks.
On the other hand, I used some oil based Zinnser stain killer and it did have the problem you're talking about. Being oil based I didn't have anything to thin it with and managed to get through what I needed to do. But I know what you're talking about. It was drying so fast that the brush marks barely had time to settle out.

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Try water. _____________
You do realize that it takes considerable time for paint to actually dry beyond the finger dry stage, right? And that the paint film becomes increasingly thinner as it dries over a week's time or more? How thickly are you applying the paint? You really shouldn't be laying it on thick enough to leave brush marks.
Concerning rollers, they really do leave a better surface. Again, if it is applied properly. Best way I have found is to load the roller and them make an "M" or "W" about 30" square on the wall; one then rolls that - back and forth - in all directions...up<>down, left<>right, NE<>SW, NW<>SE. Feather the edges and feather the next "M" into it. ___________________
Despite the above, I *do* empathize with you. Many water base paints are more like soft set Jello than paint and are difficult to feather. I'm not sure why they make them that way but strongly suspect it has something to do with women wanting to paint things :) _____________________
Personally, I have given up trying to get a good latex paint job on woodwork (walls, NP); instead, I make a stippled one by re-rolling when the paint is pretty tacky. Works for me, YMMV.
Time was, I wouldn't even consider using latex on woodwork but oil base paint is getting too hard to come by.
--

dadiOH
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oil or Alkyd based paint. And on exterior it is LESS likely to blister and peel..
Heck, even CARS are being painted with "water born" paint now - and today's car paints stand up MUCH better than the paints of the '80s and before.
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Robert,
Why is the paint drying so quickly? Buy a quart or pint and see if this new batch also dries quickly. I'm thinking defective paint.
Dave M..
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RobertMacy wrote:

My vote would be to try adding water to the paint to thin it out (water water, not distilled water). I think that will help keep the paint from drying too quickly and will give it a chance to flow and even out better and reduce brush marks. You can try it with a small amount of paint in a separate container rather than mixing the water into the entire container of paint.
I think that the paint companies like to put additives into the paint to make it "non-drip" so it doesn't drip off paint brushes or rollers. You may be able to lessen that "feature" by thinning the paint with water.
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On 8/22/2013 10:30 AM, RobertMacy wrote:

Dry within a minute? Never heard of an interior paint drying that fast...is this new, fresh, well mixed, applied at temp./surface according to label instructions? Sun or wind? Interior or exterior? Drywall?

Glass cleaner?!??

What does the label say?

Dunn Edwards is a brand. Which product(s) are you using?

What does the label say? How does the label dry/cure time compare to your results? If you have followed the label and results are bad, contact the paint store (not HD or Lowes, I hope) or the mfg. Let us know what you find out.
This is interesting: http://www.dunnedwards.com/Homeowners/Paint101/PaintProblemsSolutions.aspx?problemid 
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Glass Cleaner? Back in the 70's then living in California, when water base was just gaining foothold, I fought brush strokes, gumming, and basically thought the stuff was some kind of rip off. UNTIL! I used some of our Easy Off Window Cleaner, came in a yellow can, cleaning glass it never left a streak, beat Windex hands down [Easy Off corp discontinued the product !!] Originally, if I found a run [usually around some odd structure shape where the brush squeegeed too much paint] I was screwed. Had to wait hours and hours to dry, then sand down and recoat to remove the run. Also, continually fought 'gumming' could not brush out a 'bad' stroke without doing damage to the 'wet' paint. Outof desparation, I sprayed EasyOff Window Cleaner onto the surface and it magically turned the paint back into a liquid - I could take out a run, flatten a stroke, rework, essentially do ANYTHING I wanted to the water base paint. I found I could even rework a surface more than 6 hours after completing. So if I found something I didn't like, simply spray, paint, and done FLAT!! And that's when I started going extreme: paint, wet 'n' dry sand, paint and end up with a surface that looked like commercial grade, formica flat. Within a year, the wood grain would reassert itself so the look came out beautiful.
It was during this time, I gave up on rollers, the cut in left marks, the stipple left patterns, and damage from trying to rework a semi-dry area left 'unfogriveable' cottage cheese on the walls! Absolutely worse than a brush! Best was an artist air brush and oil base paint, now that was nice, especially for doing the trim around the windows in the french doors.
Using Dunn Edwards in order to match color already used: Dunn Edwards W6240 WERSAFLAT base.
For what's it's worth, a 'close' color match from Home Depot yielded the same battles with brush strokes. Even their high end exterior masonry paint [different color and over stucco] does the same.
Thank you for that URL. Not a lot of real information there except to decry competitors 'cheaper' products not working well, EXCEPT, the web info does say that high temperature and low humidity cause trouble. They don't give humidity number, but do mention 90 degrees, I assume that's Fahrenheit.
Interior home is anywhere from 82 to 89 degrees [also Fahrenheit] and being in the desert, humidity is usually in the 10-16% ranges, plus run a bit of AIR and probably even lower.
Ok, so last night I just poured in the water to thin [guess at less than 10% increase in volume] until the stirring stick has run-off like low-fat milk. Painted, and can verify VERY thin, because left drops on the floor EVERYWHERE about every 4 inches. STILL VERY DISAPPOINTING! Dried more slowly, took around 10 minutes or less to be able to touch the surfaces. But the results were just 'less' corduroy.
I wish I knew what the professional people had done to that paint. Can't locate people with all those realestate bubble bursting bankruptcies. Know they sprayed it on. Oddly that paint which leaves almost no brush strokes does not seem to need a lot of stirring, nor does it drip off the brush, just 'miracle' stuff.
I need a chemical wetting agent that keeps this paint from drying out too fast.
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On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 07:32:41 -0700, RobertMacy

with flagged or split ends.
If you are using a natural bristle brush you will NEVER get a decent job with latex.
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I purchased every type. from $0.50 at Walmart, you know the type with a wad of hair on the end of something resembling wood. Oddly, even this one is not too bad with the right technique.
In general, the 'least' offensive is a polyester extremely finely feathered brush that has the ends so fluffy it looks like a cotton swab on the end. around $8.00 !! for a 2 inch wide.
Last night's effort showed that a 'new' technique helps, and I mean helps, that is lay the paint on ONCE and never touch it again. That produced some almost flat areas. But, is fraught with peril of missing sections, uneven paint layer, and giant glops at an overlap. So is difficult to maintain.
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On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 09:58:16 -0700, RobertMacy

I was paying 3 times that for a good 2 1/2" brush 30 years ago. Cheap doesn't work with brushes.
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On Friday, August 23, 2013 3:54:15 PM UTC-4, Vic Smith wrote:

$24 for a 2 1/2" paint brush 30 years ago? Have you been drinking?
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On Sat, 24 Aug 2013 09:51:00 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

My mother had some she paid more than that for fifty years ago. Paint brushes have gotten cheaper over the years. China bristle, you know. ;-)
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On Sat, 24 Aug 2013 09:51:00 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

I'm sober enough to say this: Fuck you. Now go back to your inane political crying, dipshit. Your only use to me is to give me the occasion to cuss with no hesitation, guilt or regrets. BTW, fuck you.
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On Saturday, August 24, 2013 2:53:31 PM UTC-4, Vic Smith wrote:

I guess we know the answer to the question now. Thanks for the brilliant display!
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It must be stressful having the bullets flying your way without the ability to discourage more of the same.
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On 8/23/2013 7:32 AM, RobertMacy wrote:

way too thin. the label will state how much you can thin it and also the expected drying time. there's also an 800 number you can call to ask.
i also only use dunn-edwards, and also live in your area. it is pretty thick when first poured, probably to help the complaint about drips off the roller as someone else previously stated. i get good coverage and it takes a couple of minutes to dry enough to the touch to not leave fingerprints. i don't get brush strokes when i edge, and rolling doesn't leave any marks either. i use flat on the ceilings only, and eggshell on all the walls. i've even partially painted walls with paint that was stored in the garage for a couple of years, and not been able to see the difference in texture or color.
you should take your can, a brush, and a piece of wallboard to the d-e store and show them. they should be able to help you; i see lots of paint pros in my store when i'm there and the staff is very knowledgeable and helpful.
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wrote:

I will try the 800 number, the employees at DE didn't have a clue.
Uh,...take a CLOSE look at your paint surface. Bet you have more 'ridges' there than you believe.
When I'm done with a wall it 'looks' flat, beautiful, BUT! There is one type of light that hits it that highlights the strokes. Plus, I'm personally cursed with some visual 'dis'-ability defect that causes me to see them in plain light. Especially show up at edges and corners where strokes overlap. Rolling leaves a pattern that my eye seems to catch. That is, rolling the paint on, not me rolling.
At the DE store EVERY sample color they have on the wall, painted onto individual pieces of boards, looks like worse corduroy than I'm fighting. So must be a case of people don't notice.
SOLVED, well a bit. Paint normally with thick, then sand flat with 220. Two times if have to. Then, surface with 'watery' paint. Makes for almost NO brush strokes whatsoever.
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On 8/24/2013 10:35 AM, RobertMacy wrote:

When I varnish furniture, I thin the first couple of coats to get it level and into the grain....nice and smooth. I've never been able to roll paint on walls without getting the shadow effect where the roller edges go. I think I have one more room to paint; lifetime limit :o) Kitchen/dining area with beadboard wainscoating.
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Thank you for this confirmation. That is, it is my contention that *IF* it doesn't work well to paint with a brush by making 'small' problems; painting with a roller will just make 'large' problems. Those were my experiences, too.
Now back to possible solutions. Three options: 1. paint, sand, paint, sand, paint with thin - a lot of work and time, but comes out beautiful! 2. flow on coating ONCE - very difficult to do 3. paint, keep going. When tack free, coat again - VERY difficult to time properly
With the surfaces along a very sunlit hallway, and the curved edges around the four sliding doors to the outside, all being within inches of your face; it is important to make look as good as possible.
Plus, another effect. There is a subtle change in the way the rooms look when the walls are painted properly. Difficult to describe. Similar to when rooms are clean; just subtly better.
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