On 19 Sep 2006 07:31:54 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, snipped-for-privacy@fashionsintime.com quickly quoth:
OK, now I believe you.
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I notice you say "did" operate a retail business. If you sold a quality product that would get repeat customers, maybe you'd still be in business. My local paint store sells various grades, but they do not sell crap. Bob has been in the paint business for over 30 years because of his good reputation.
I agree with the fact you can't tell brand. I tried WalMart stuff once. After the fourth coat I decided I'd never try it again. That may have just been that color and that batch but it was back to my regular store.
The "IDIOT" anger. The "Sheesh" anger.
This sounds like you used BIN or Kilz on the knots, and Behr latex primer on the rest of the wood. Two different primers. The usual reason for using spot primer on the knots is because oil primer works better than latex primer on knots. That's why most knot primer is oil-based. That's why I assumed that the spot primer you used on the knots was oil-based.
Are you sure the knot-primer you used was water-based? The way you stated it ("or whatever Behr recommended") sure makes it sound like you didn't recall clearly what product you used. If it was indeed an oil primer, that might help explain the problem you experienced.
I've used California paint. My secondary supplier carries it. It's good paint but no better than first line Benjamin Moore or Sherwin Williams. Save yourself some trouble.
Yes...I'm sure. I know because I can read a can of paint. I know what it is because it's the same stuff I'm using now - Bin latex. I still had an old can of it in the garage, and it's the same as what was recommended by the California paint people (my local paint guy called them to ask). Yes, we are using it just on the knots, and we prime over both the wood and the Bin. I know it's water based because it cleans up with just water and a little ammonia. Stinky, but cleans up fast. The boards are dry to the touch in an hour and can supposedly be primed the next day, although I wait at least 48 hours. For this current paint job I KNOW the wood is dry (not green, etc.) because the clapboards sat in my garage for 6 months before we were ready to put up the siding. Again, I've been painting exterior structures for more than 40 years, and the only paint I've EVER had start peeling in such a short time was Behr. I had a contractor paint my house years ago with some big box brand (he supplied the paint - I was SO stupid!) and it lasted less than 2 years. I found an old paint can in the garage recently that was the same color as that job, and lo and behold, that was Behr paint, too! It wasn't even the "Premium" stuff, so yeah, I really think that there's a huge difference in quality and results when it comes to paint. H
Back to the shed: what exactly is peeling? Is the paint peeling from the primer (and the primer is still adhering to the wood), or is the primer peeling from the wood (and the paint is still adhering to the primer)? The difference is important.
I'm assuming the primer and the topcoat paint are different colors so you can see the difference.
Assuming it's the right paint for the job, it pretty much does.
"Junk" paint, no, not necessarily. But just because a store has "buying power" does not turn $15 paint into $30 paint. It's just not possible to use the same ingredients for that price.
Obviously it's partly the research that went into developing the paint. It's also the superior and higher concentration of materils, such as 100% acrylic, etc.
That makes no sense.
You absolutely cannot tell the brand. But sometimes you can tell the quality, and sometimes not. Quality affects different things. For example, how many coats it takes, or how much you have to cover or clean up because of high splatter. But you can't tell those things after the job is done, if the job was done right.
On the other hand, if the paint looks dirty and worn and can't be cleaned well after only a short time, then it was probably cheap paint. But the people who paid for it and lived with it will know. So, your "point" is moot.
Actually, it's usually $0 when you can put it on in one coat rather than 2.
How do you know this? Do you have data on the manufacturer's cost for binder, pigments, and fillers? Where did you get the data?
You can walk into the big-box stores and buy 100% acrylic (with the exact same CAS number as the $30 paint) for under $15. It's too bad they're not required by law to list percentages in addition to CAS numbers. It would make comparison shopping a whole lot less mysterious and anecdotal.
I must have two dozen different paints and primers in my basement. Some of the very inexpensive ones are quite good.
"Ether Jones" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:
Fully agree with all that!
Tony Hwang wrote in news:X0UPg.556589$iF6.411649@pd7tw2no:
Ya gotta give 'em that one folks...:-)
I just got off the phone with ColorPlace tech support. I called the number listed on one of the gallons of their latex porch floor paint I had in the basement. I asked the guy who makes their paint. He told me Sherwin Williams.
That's just one data point, and I wouldn't take it to the bank. While I was on the phone with him, I asked about the application directions listed on the label. The label said to use an oil-based primer to prime bare wood before applying the paint. Now, WalMart doesn't sell an oil-based primer rated for horizontal wood surfaces exposed to weather and foot traffic, so what am I supposed to use? He recommended I pick something up at Lowe's. I had already looked at all the primers at Lowe's and I've yet to find one that is rated for foot traffic. I thanked him and said good-day.
Now this is VERY interesting, because about a week ago I had a conversation with Sherwin Williams tech support about some porch floor paint they make for the local DoItBest hardware/paint store here in town. This stuff costs $25 per gallon, and nowhere on the label did it mention priming. So I asked whether this was an oversight, or if they really didn't want me to prime the wood. The answer: DON'T prime the wood. Reason: their research shows that their porch floor latex holds up better when applied to bare wood. The primers don't hold up well to the foot traffic combined with the expansion/contraction of the wood due to moisture, and the primer tends to separate from the wood.
This parallels my own personal experience. I oil-primed and latex-topcoated some porch steps two years ago (because that's what the label said to do), and the primer blistered off within a year. So this year I hand-scraped and power-washed the steps and the breezeway, and put down the porch floor latex without any primer. It should be interesting to see what happens.
Just for clarification, BIN is a product of the Zinsser company. It is neither an oil-based primer nor a latex primer, but a pigmented shellac and normally recommended for interior use. Zinsser makes several other primers including "123", a latex interior/exterior primer, and "Coverstain", an oil-based int/ext primer.
Kilz is a brand name of MasterChem Industries. They make several oil based and latex based products that use 'Kilz' in the name.
Does either Zinsser or MasterChem make a water-base primer rated for horizontal wood surfaces exposed to weather and heavy foot traffic?
Sorry, you'll have to do your own research to answer that one :) Both their websites are easy to find, and I recall getting a prompt email response from Zinsser a few years ago.
I've already checked the websites and the store shelves. I've yet to find a water-base primer from any company that's explicitly rated for horizontal wood surfaces exposed to weather and foot traffic. You seemed knowledgeable; thought maybe there was some street wisdom that one of their products could be successfully used in that type of application, even though the labelling didn't explicitly indicate such.
Zinsser owns Wolman. Wolman makes a product called "Woodlife Classic". Ever heard of it?
According to jeffc :
In the sense that BM _here_ doesn't appear to have multiple _grades_ of paint labelled as "Benjamin Moore". There's one grade labelled "Benjamin Moore" (with different names for flat vs. satin etc), and the other is labeled "Para".
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