Paint formula changes

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I have a question about paint formulas. I have a feeling when I mention the manufacturer and/or the store, alot of you out there will say "oh well no wonder" or something nice like that. I'd appreciate it if you'd try and be as objective as possible in answering. We all have our attitudes... including me.
I bought a gallon of interior trim Behr (oooh no wonder!) paint from Home Depot (oooh say no more!) a couple of years ago. Used it for my window trim, and then the following year, when I finshed with *part* of a porch addition, did the window trim with the same paint. And *then* the year after that when I finished the wall trim, couldn't find the paint. I figured I must've finished it up. I remembered the name, French Blue, was forgetting if it was Behr or not and called HD up to be verify it. They said, yes there was a French Blue in the Behr interior line, but it was an older paint and didn't carry it as part of their regular line any longer. But not to worry, he said, because they keep all the formulas in the computer and all they had to do was spit it out.
So I went in and got a gallon.
Immediately upon painting I noticed a rather drastic difference betw the previous year's painting and this one. I first thought, ok, this just has to dry. Then it dried and was still looking very different, and I thought, ok, maybe the paint is photoreactive and last year's paint darkened somewhat. In about a year, everything will even out. But when I finished the job, I just wasnt sure about that conclusion.
Then I found the "lost" can of paint from the previous year. I compared the formulas, and found a very slight difference, but a difference nonetheless.
PREVIOUS PAINT FORMULA
colorant    oz    48    96 Lamp Black    0    28    0 Thalo Blue    1    20    0 Magenta        0    26    0
CURRENT PAINT FORMULA
colorant    oz    48    96 Lamp Black    0    28    0 Thalo Blue    1    16    0 Magenta        0    24    0
You'll notice the lower numbers for the Thalo Blue and Magenta, which would, if nothing else, explain the lighther color.
So I called Home Depot and asked for an explanation. She (same lady who mixed it) said that Behr is "always changing its formulas". When I asked why? What sense does that make? She had an oblique answer by saying "when you came in I was a bit worried about mixing this up for you" thus cleverly making it more into my problem. I said that I had called them, said I had bought the paint a couple years ago, that the fellow said they kept the formula and no one said anything whatsoever about changed formulas.
Now, after a week and a day, I'm still waiting for her supervisor to get back to me (even though she said they'd do anything to help remedy the problem). I expect after a small exchange of gunfire, I'll come away with a gallon of paint, but it all just left me wondering. Is this normal? Do manufacturers change formulas at will and without notice? I called another dealer and he gave a qualified yes, saying that sometimes they might "consolidate the bases, like from 5 to 4 bases". But he himself hadn't seen just a change of numbers. And this change with my paint has had nothing to do with Base changes.
The cynic in me says that if Behr just lowers a couple of notches in the amount of colorant they put in each gallon, keeping the price the same, (or for that matter forced to lower the price by HD) they can keep costs under control. Does that sound plausible?
thanks in advance for replies av
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av wrote: ...

It is not so simple as that.
For the most part you were only addressing the issue of the color formula. That is only part of the process. There is also the a paint formula. A change in the paint formula can require a change in the color formula and even then it may not be an exact match. In addition to the color, the finish may change and that may make the color appear different.
Paint formulas change for any number of reasons. Cost of materials is one. If one ingredient goes up in price or another goes down, it may be possible to make some changes in the formula with no loss of quality and may help them avoid a price increase. Customer demand also causes changes to the paint formula. For example many paints have become much more washable in the past few years. Government restrictions on formulas also may force changes.
Color formulas also tend to change. The color materials may change or newer mixing machines may result in new formula since the metering will be different. New color match systems seemed to have changed things.
Frankly if all they wanted to do was save a few dollars on tint, all they would have had to do is to thin down the tint and leave the formulas the same.
--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
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Ive dealt with Ben Moore alot and their Satin Impervo line has the same colors or refrenced to for 20 yrs. Sheen is also the same. But I can see changes on more consumer lines lines being the norm. but who knows, Behr does.
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Call Behr but i will say it is their fault color changes are noted with other companys, you asked for the paint color get it. There may not have been a change just a mistake, it happens everyday when alot of paint is mixed, bottom line its your fault for not checking the color, but you will get a free gallon .
You idea on colorant and costs make no sence
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Even if you buy 2 cans of any brand paint from the same batch the same day, if you want a perfect match you need to blend them. Even if the formulars were identical there was just about a zero chance of a perfect match with the old batch.
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The paint colourant dispensing machines used for domestic or consumer sales are not precise. The colourant is not always stirred before each use, the method of measuring the colourant may induce a bubble and result in a little short on a particular colour, the size of colourant "shots" is not a very fine calibration.
In the 1950's, I worked in my fathers auto painting shop. We had a paint colourant system that was supplied by a major Canadian paint manufacturer. It used a float that sat in a gallon can. The colourant was hand dispensed but the float operated a needle on a scale. It could measure the level of the paint to a thousandth of an inch. Colours were precise and repeatable not like the rough measurements used in paint stores.
Anything from a paint store or paint department will depend on the person mixing the colours. Some are good, others don't care and rush through it. Each can could be different and need mixing together to get one colour.

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Sure, Behr might've changed the formula, and there are always variations in mixing.
But, unless you're really really interested in paint industry practices, this original forumula is all you really need. Or, the better solution: HD will "color match" any sample you bring in (with a spectrophotometer). They will also take back any mostly-unused paint you bring them, with or without a receipt. No worries.
JSH
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You must have skipped the part where I said that all I had at the time of the purchase of the second gallon was just the name AND the assurance from HD that they had the formula in their computer. This isn't so much a question as to why the formula was changed (altho' that has been a question for me) but rather why they didn't tell me about the change. And for that matter why they are changing a formula of a color that they dont even feature any more! Yes, of course, NOW that I realize that these formulas aren't cast in stone against the name of the paint, I'll hang onto the numbers.
I'm also glad that you think so highly of HD service. Im now waiting yet a second time (after a second call) for the Paint Dept supervisor to call me back. Yes it will all be resolved one way or another, but I'm sure going through alot for what should be a rather clear, rudimentary procedure.
Also, to the poster above who was trying to teach me about color matching, that is not the point of this post. Frankly, if at least the numbers had matched in the formula, I really really doubt that there would be as drastic a color change as that I have on my hands. There is a difference between slight and obvious.
Thanks to everyone else so far for their input. av
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You must have skipped the part where I said that all I had at the time of the purchase of the second gallon was just the name AND the assurance from HD that they had the formula in their computer. This isn't so much a question as to why the formula was changed (altho' that has been a question for me) but rather why they didn't tell me about the change. And for that matter why they are changing a formula of a color that they dont even feature any more! Yes, of course, NOW that I realize that these formulas aren't cast in stone against the name of the paint, I'll hang onto the numbers.
I'm also glad that you think so highly of HD service. Im now waiting yet a second time (after a second call) for the Paint Dept supervisor to call me back. Yes it will all be resolved one way or another, but I'm sure going through alot for what should be a rather clear, rudimentary procedure.
Also, to the poster above who was trying to teach me about color matching, that is not the point of this post. Frankly, if at least the numbers had matched in the formula, I really really doubt that there would be as drastic a color change as that I have on my hands. There is a difference between slight and obvious.
Thanks to everyone else so far for their input. av
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I dunno about YOUR HD but mine lets you return plants if they croak within a year. (I've been wondering how they will handle annuals-I have entertained myself with visions of digging up all my faded annuals at the end of the year and returning them for store credit).
Hard to imagine paint is a problem, although it's unclear why you'd need a quart to figure out it didn't match.
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You really have no problem. Take the can of Behr back to the Home Depot returns desk. Tell them the color didn't match up. Get your credit or cash. Walk over to the paint desk with the OLD formula you shared here. Ask them to manually spec that formula into whatever surface sheen you want. No supervisor or management approval required.

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You know, I like your thinking. Simple and sweet. You think having a quart used out of the gallon is going to raise eyebrows though? :o)
av
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On 1 Jul 2004 06:56:13 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@sover.net (av) wrote:

be bleached unevenly, or be darkened by mildew and dirt. Modern paint colors are pretty stable but still not as sensitive as our color vision.
I recall this story from an old Readers' Digest, a time before computers were even found in paint production factories.
A house painter was being driven up the wall by the lady of the house. She wanted a tint of green for her wall to match the green of a picture frame she admired. Despite a growing collection of paint mixes nothing could match her expectations. Finally the old hand came in and asked what was the problem? He got the younger painter and the lady out on an errand while he mixed a new batch. By the time they came back the lady was delighted that the paint color finally matched.
Our young man was impressed. "What did you do to mix the match?"
"I didn't. I painted the frame."
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Please get a real news reader and get off of Google Groups. Do you understand that this is Usenet? Do you know what Usenet is? If not then please look it up. You're responding to a 10-year-old post.
Google Groups is just a hard-to-use webpage copy of Usenet posts. Usenet is not designed for webpages. If you get a real news reader you'll find it easer to use and you won't be trying to talk to people who've been gone for 10 years.
On Thursday, July 1, 2004 9:56:13 AM UTC-4, av wrote:

I work for a paint company, so I was the subject of all chemical compositions in paints react differently to different colorants, what I mean is that if you sold them a different line of paint (different than the original ) should not necessarily apply the same formula and / or colorants, ask them to comply with (2 units Magneta and 4 Thalo blue) but do not guarantee the results, because unknown to the chemical values of the two paintings, the same problem try in our company almost daily, by state regulations, we have improved the quality of our products by eliminating chemical contaminants, that in turn affects the reaction of the dyes in the new base to the extent that we have to adjust the formula to achieve the former colors. we recommend you repaint.
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On Monday, May 26, 2014 3:30:33 PM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:

Here we go again. I use GG and I don't have any problem in not replying to 10 year old posts. It's the operator, not the tool. Do you understand that different people have different usage models and just because you like your solution, it doesn't mean that other folks who prefer other solutions need to change.
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| Here we go again. I use GG and I don't have any problem | in not replying to 10 year old posts. It's the operator, | not the tool. Do you understand that different people | have different usage models and just because you like | your solution, it doesn't mean that other folks who prefer | other solutions need to change.
I've never seen anyone respond to old posts who wasn't using Google groups. If you like it that's up to you, but webpage format is a very poor subsstitute for a newsreader. And people are misled. You may understand Usenet but many people don't. They find Google Groups online and then they think they're in a forum. They need to understand how it all works.
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On Monday, May 26, 2014 9:26:08 PM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:

And why exactly is that? It works perfectly find for me. And I can use it at any computer I want, not just the one I have a newsreader installed on.

Mislead by what exactly? And even if they are, why do you care?

No, they just need to be able to use it. And any damn fool can respond to a 10 year old post with a newsreader too.
A couple days ago you were here bitching because someone put down Windows, claiming Linux was so superior and the only right solution. Now you're doing the same thing, pissing and moaning about GG.
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| > And people are misled. | | Mislead by what exactly? And even if they are, why | do you care? | Misled by the webpage format, not understanding how Usenet works. I care because it wastes everyones' time for people to answer 10 year old posts. Not least of which is the person posting. Assuming cerda28 was writing a sincere post, they've wasted their time more than anyone else has. Why shouldn't I tell them?
| No, they just need to be able to use it. And any damn fool | can respond to a 10 year old post with a newsreader too. |
I don't assume the GG users are "damn fools". I'm guessing it's simply a case of their only knowing Usenet through Google reprints, so they neither understand how Usenet works nor realize how awkward webpage format is for the medium. A lot of younger people, especially, have never actually seen Usenet in its real form, as a distinct protocol from http.
And I don't see how even a "damn fool" could respond to a 10-year-old post using a newsreader. A newsreader displays recent posts. Mine defaults to the most recent 300. If I could see a post from 2004 it would probably take me 10 minutes just to scroll that far. But I wouldn't, because the posts are in order, so I could see perfectly well that those posts date to 2004! Have you ever used a newsreader yourself? They show current posts, highlighting the ones you haven't read. They also display in a "treeview", showing the order of posts in a thread, so that people don't have to keep reposting the whole thread. The layout provides a clear, immediate, graphical view of all active conversations. Webpage format flattens that into a long series of posts, with no clear way to see who was posting to whom, and no way to display the structure of posts in a thread. In short, newsreaders are especially designed for Usenet. You might want to try one out. I think you'll find they're far more appropriate than a webpage layout, just as a Windows Explorer treeview is far easier to work with than it would be to have a simple listbox, listing every file on your computer in a single, long list.
| A couple days ago you were here bitching because someone | put down Windows, claiming Linux was so superior and the | only right solution.
As I recall you were agreeing with me. :) I wasn't "bitching". He was making a cheap dig about Windows, but I wasn't answering to that. I answered him because he was wrong and his post was potentially misleading to the OP, implying that Linux held the solution to the OP's dilemma.
| Now you're doing the same thing, | pissing and moaning about GG.
Bitching and pissing and moaning? Do you feel you need to stand up for GG? Do you really think it's better to just leave cerda28 in ignorance? You're not doing him/her any favors by not saying anything. If you were wasting your time writing to people who aren't there, wouldn't you want to be told?
(We might all start writing to people who aren't there one of these days, but at least we don't have to do it while we can still think clearly. :)
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On Monday, May 26, 2014 10:20:30 PM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:

I'm using GG right now. It clearly shows that this post you just made was on May 26, 11 hours ago. It's part of the header displayed. It also clearly says that the old post that the person responded to yesterday was made 7/2/04.
Not least

I didn't say you shouldn't tell them. I said that you shouldn't be slamming and blaming GG, because it's an operator error, that has nothing to do with GG. Got it now?

And a lot of them don't give a damn how usenet works. They go searching for something, see something and make a post. Maybe they do that once in 10 years, maybe it's their first time. But according to you, they have to understand how usenet works and need to find and install a newsreader, instead of using GG. Every one of these people that I see, makes one post and that's it. They probably were Googling for something, saw a post, made a reply via GG. They may not do it again for 5 years. But according to you, they are supposed to learn how usenet works, figure out which newsreader they want to use, install it? Really?
A lot

Irrelevant, especially for someone that makes one post a year. And I think that's what you're seeing.

The posts are in order on GG and the date is clearly stated. Obviously you don't even use GG and don't know what it does. And they almost certainly are not finding old posts by scrolling, they are likely finding them via a search engine, eg Google.

I have no problem following everything on GG. I'm here communicating everyday.

I have used them. You might want to stop bitching about what other people use, which has *nothing* to do with the problem. The date of that 7/02/04 post is clearly diplayed in GG.
The tree feature is nice, but you ignore the significant advantages that GG has. I can use it from any computer, anywhere without having to put special software on it. You can't do that with your newsreader. Am I going to slam it because of that, tell you it's a piece of crap? No.
I think you'll find they're far more appropriate than a

And you're now doing *exactly* what he did. You're on your soap box, bitching about how GG sucks and how what you use is so superior. He did the same thing, slamming Windows in favor of Linux. He was wrong, so are you.

Yes, just as much as you need to put it and those that use it down.
Do you really think it's better to just

Good grief. I had no problem with you telling him that the post was 10 years old. It's you laying off the problem on GG that I take issue with. And I doubt he's even going to see your response anyway. He's most likely not following the group. He probably did a search, found that old post, responded to it and he's done. Can you show us one of these one hit wonders that started making regular posts? Or even made more than the one post?
You're not doing him/her

Deflection noted. Deflection rejected.
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