Oven is in. Some more questions.

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The point being that the manufacturer's instructions trump these rules. There are *many* cases where appliances have all four wires but they aren't necessary according to the instructions (neutral not required but available).
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On 4/9/2013 9:40 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Nec. The Nec allows you to use an existing 3 wire feeder on cooking and electric clothes dryers. The manufacturer may or may not allow it. Some cooking appliances don't use a neutral, they are 240 volt with ground. The Nec doesn't require you to run the neutral for these
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The manufacturer's instructions will say so. Again, the manufacturer's instructions (and listings) override the NEC's "rules".
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On Apr 10, 10:58 am, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Oh, really, now that's a new one! A manufacturer can override NEC? Really?
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On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 09:54:32 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

Yes, really. His ass is always on the line.
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On Apr 9, 9:40 pm, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

I'd like to see one example of an oven installation manual for an oven that has a neutral wire where it says it's not necessary for it to be connected if you have a 4 wire circuit, ie one that has a neutral. Every oven I've ever seen that had a neutral said it was to be connected to the circuit neutral if the neutral was available. Optionally, if no GROUND is available, the ground and neutral may be connected together.
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On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 05:38:27 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

My old one was that way. The neutral wasn't necessary but it was there. THere were instructions for wiring it to either 3-wire or 4-wire services. Clothes dryers are the same.
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On Apr 10, 10:59 am, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

What exactly would the purpose be for an oven to have a neutral coming out, but it was optional to connect it? A real kitchen wall oven like the OP is installing that is, not some small special oven that could be used 120V or 240V. Just show us one such regular oven with a neutral, but connecting it is optional.
As for 3 wire vs 4, when it comes to ovens and dryers, you're confused. The 4th wire is the GROUND, not the neutral. Before a ground was required, you had 3 wire 240V with two hots and a NEUTRAL. IF you have an existing 3 wire circuit like that, then the typical instructions for an oven say that you can connect it to that 3 wire circuit by tying the ground and neutral together. If you have 4 wires, then you install it that way, per the install instructions and code.
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On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:57:55 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

This happens all the time with all sorts of appliances. You think people rip out the three-wire service and add four-wire when they install an oven or a dryer? Wow!

Idiot. It was a standard kitchen range. Four connections with instructions for both three-wire and four-wire connections. It's not uncommon at all.

Blow me. Look for yourself.

Wrong.

Wrong. Neutral is not required for 240V loads, where there is "no" 120V component (where the value of "no" has been reduced over time). Ground *is* required.

Wrong. Grounded cases have been around a *LOT* longer than the neutral requirement on (mostly) 240V appliances.
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On Apr 10, 12:55 pm, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

No and clearly I never suggested any such thing. In fact, unlike you, I described the exact issue. That issue is that older 240V circuits for an oven may have 3 wires, two hots and a NEUTRAL. The install instructions give directions for connecting an oven that has 4 wires:
2 hot neutral ground
to that 3 wire circuit by tying the neutral and ground together. The neutral IS CONNECTED. It's not left there, unused. Geez....
What YOU claim exists are ovens that have a neutral coming out of them, but it's optional to connect it. That is what I would like to see.

Of couse not. I acknowledged that. RBM and the OP acknowledged that. But that has nothing to do with what you claimed:
"My old one was that way. The neutral wasn't necessary but it was there. THere were instructions for wiring it to either 3-wire or 4-wire services. Clothes dryers are the same.
There are *many* cases where appliances have all four wires but they aren't necessary according to the instructions (neutral not required but available). "
So, if there are many cases, just show us one.....
crickets.....

And there you have it folks. Instead of admitting that you made a mistake, that you were wrong, you doulbe down and start with the vulgarity. Typical/

Yes, IF, that circuit was installed today. That is CURRENT Code. You can run a 240V circuit with two hots and a ground. What you fail to realize is that there are OLD circuits out there when you could run 240V using two hots, one neutral, no ground. That is why oven manufacturers have instructions for connecting a new oven with 4 wires to such a circuit. Capiche?
Hint: It doesn't involve optionally connecting the neutral from the oven, which is what you claimed.

There is no "neutral requirement" on appliances. RBM just told you how he installed a range that had no neutral. What we are all waiting to see is the mythical installation manual for an oven where the oven has a neutral and it's OPTIONAL to connect it.. THAT is what you claimed.
And note, "blow me" is not an answer.
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On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 10:16:53 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

YOu repeated what other had said. I saw no reason to show how smart I am by doing it once more. Apparently you're in that business.

WRONG! A neutral is not needed when the load is 240V. The ground is *ALWAYS* needed for safety. At one time it was legal to use three wires and the ground for a small current (timer, etc.).

Idiot.

No, I said there were instructions for connecting them. It gets connected to the GROUND. Though smaller units don't have a neutral at all. If there are no timers, or such, there is no need for a neutral.
<more argumentative nonsense snipped>

It's a better answer than you deserve.
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On 4/10/2013 7:17 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

it's pre existing, is a 3 wire feeder which consists of 2 hot legs and 1 neutral, it is not a ground, it is a neutral. This neutral is allowed to serve as a ground on cooking equipment and electric clothes dryers which use two hots, one neutral, and one ground.

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On 4/10/2013 5:17 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

An oven will not have a neutral unless it is needed. The supply circuit may have a neutral that is not needed by the oven if the oven does not have a neutral connection. Trader is clearly correct.
All sorts of appliances? If the supply circuit is H-H-N, only oven (& cooktop) and dryers can have the load ground connected to the supply neutral. All other appliances you have to replace a 3-wire supply if the appliance needs 4 wires.

That is the circuit supplying power. Part of the problem is confusion between whether the supply circuit is being discussed or the oven. Trader has consistently got it right.

If there is a 3-wire circuit supply (that was compliant when installed) the supply neutral can be used as the neutral and ground for the oven. As RBM emphasizes, the supply neutral is used. These 3-wire supply circuits did not have a ground.
The ground is not used for small currents. Dryers often have 120V motors and those dryers need a neutral.
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On 4/10/2013 12:55 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

This is where you seem to be confused. The manufacturer can choose to build a range that just uses 240 volt with ground. Most do not, they use both neutral and ground, and if so, and it's a new installation, the Nec requires a four wire feeder. If it's an existing feeder, and it's 3 wire, the Nec allows you to use it on a new four wire range, provided that it's acceptable with the manufacturer. Some manufacturers do require a four wire feeder, and will specify it in the instructions. The manufacturer doesn't trump the Nec. They are two separate entities.
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There is if it has 120V circuits, but I get your message, though tell that to the moron Trader. It's what I've been saying.

it is not *I* who is confused. The moron Trader is saying that the neutral is required. I agree with you. It is not.

It's now a requirement if there are *any* 120V circuits (timers or convenience outlets, etc.). It's been a while since Iv 'e seen an oven that doesn't have a 4-wire connection. Instructions usually will tell how to connect it to a 3-wire service (also what I've been saying all along).

Sure, but that's all in the instructions. Sheesh!
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On Apr 10, 7:22 pm, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

You're telling everyone what we already know. You made the claim that the neutral "requirement" for appliances came in to being as something new at some point. The fact that a neutral is required for a 120V circuit is a fact known to all and off course has been necessary since day one.
Let's review the real issue, shall we?
Trader:

KRW:

What I stated is absolutely correct. Both RBM and Bud, both electricians, have confirmed that. There is no new "neutral requirement". You're clearly just confused about the standard hookup method for 240V appliances, like ovens, that allow those with 4 WIRES to be hooked up to older 3 WIRE circuits. And none of those instructions that I have ever seen involve "optionally" connecting the neutral wire that an appliance has coming out of it's cable.
And to further clarify that you don't know what you're talking about:
Trader:
"I'd like to see one example of an oven installation manual for an oven that has a neutral wire where it says it's not necessary for it to be connected if you have a 4 wire circuit, ie one that has a neutral. Every oven I've ever seen that had a neutral said it was to be connected to the circuit neutral if the neutral was available. Optionally, if no GROUND is available, the ground and neutral may be connected together. "
The above is explicit and correct. It's in virtually every oven installation manual. So, if there was any doubt about how appliances that come with 4 wires actually get hooked up, why was this your response to the above?
KRW:
"My old one was that way. The neutral wasn't necessary but it was there. THere were instructions for wiring it to either 3-wire or 4-wire services. Clothes dryers are the same. "
So, clearly you are claiming that you had an oven that had a neutral coming out of it, that wasn't necessary, that was optional to connect. Sure you did..... Did I call you a moron or get vulgar? No, I just said I'd like to see an install manual for such a product, because I don't think it exists. Of course none was forthcoming because you're confused and your oven doesn't have a neutral coming out of it which can be "optionally" connected.
Then we have this gem:
KRW:
"The point being that the manufacturer's instructions trump these rules. There are *many* cases where appliances have all four wires but they aren't necessary according to the instructions (neutral not required but available). "
Wrong on all of it. Like I said, I'd like to see one appliance install manual for a 240V oven that has four wires and says the neutral connection is optional. Since there are allegedly *many*, if such existed, you would have supplied it by now. If an appliance comes with 4 wires, the neutral one is never an "optional" connection. All 4 wires must be connected. Two of those, the neutral and ground coming from the oven get tied together and connected to the NEUTRAL on the 240V circuit. Capiche?
Here's some more:
KRW:
"Again, the manufacturer's instructions (and listings) override the NEC's rules"
Trader:
"Oh, really, now that's a new one! A manufacturer can override NEC? Really? "
KRW:
"Yes, really. His ass is always on the line. "
That is so dumb and easily recognizable as wrong to all of us that know anything on this subject, that it requires no further explanation.

Again, that is not what you are claiming at all. You've been claiming that a lot of 240V ovens and dryers come with a neutral wire, but connecting that neutral is "optional". I'm the one that has been saying since the very first post that if the appliance has a neutral, then it MUST be connected to the circuit neutral. At least for every oven I've seen. Apparently for every oven everyone else here has seen, except you. You claimed:
"My old one was that way. The neutral wasn't necessary but it was there. THere were instructions for wiring it to either 3-wire or 4-wire services. Clothes dryers are the same. "
If that oven had a neutral, then it HAD TO BE CONNECTED. It got connected to the circuit NEUTRAL. If that circuit had no 4th wire, ie GROUND, then you can tie the oven ground to the neutral. Geez.....

WTF? It just gets more bizarre. What do you mean it's "now" a requirement? If the appliance ever had any 120V circuits, eg outlets the neutral was ALWAYS required. Where exactly did this alleged "new requirement" come from? You're really, really, totally embarrassing yourself.

RBM, Bud and I all know how it gets connected. I suggest you read some of those instructions. And a book on basic electricity so you'll understand that a neutral isn't a new requirement for a 120V circuit to exist as part of a 240V one.

Yeah, Sheeeh indeed.
Now would be a good time for an apology. Or at least to acknowledge that you're wrong. But of course, I don't expect that will be forthcoming.
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On Monday, April 8, 2013 8:44:07 AM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

e the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that ? The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inches from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clamp is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little confu sed becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is u sed, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the runne rs.

r breaker? What would be the appropriate size?

Ok, I went back and looked a pictures on my phone. (I took of the box). Whe re I was getting confused is right before I tackled the oven install I repl aced our range top. For some strange reason, the supply wire going to my ra ngetop is 3 wire, but the wire to my wall oven is 4 wire. I will go back an d jeck. At least now both junction boxes are accessible without pulling the appliance out. It sounds stupid to have one 3 wire and one 4 wire??????
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On 4/9/2013 2:05 PM, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below where the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that? The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inches from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clamp is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little confused becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is used, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the runners.

or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smaller breaker? What would be the appropriate size?

I was getting confused is right before I tackled the oven install I replaced our range top. For some strange reason, the supply wire going to my rangetop is 3 wire, but the wire to my wall oven is 4 wire. I will go back and jeck. At least now both junction boxes are accessible without pulling the appliance out. It sounds stupid to have one 3 wire and one 4 wire?????? Not all appliances use a neutral. I just connected a new cooktop that was straight 240 volt, two hots one ground.
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On Monday, April 8, 2013 8:44:07 AM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

e the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that ? The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inches from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clamp is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little confu sed becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is u sed, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the runne rs.

r breaker? What would be the appropriate size?

Well, I looked last night and I think corrected the problem. Bohe appliance s do have 4 wire supply wires. However, the range top itself only has three . The previous electrician I think did have the neutral supply tied to the ground. Not knowing any better, I coppied what he did.
Last night I found the directions to the oven. I rewired the top so the whi te neutral supply wire is capped off by itself. Only red to red, black to b lack, and green to bare copper are attached to each other. I also added a g round wire to the metal case itself to the ground wire. (I have found sever al instances in my house where the electrician failed to have a metal box a ttached to ground.
The wall oven which does have a neutral wire I connected only to the neutra l supply wire.
So, I am hoping this is correct. It was my mistake assuming that what the p revious electrician did was correct concerning my range. (Or maybe it was c orrect when the house was built in 1997.)
I really appreciate the help. Now it is off to fixing the mirror and outlet s in my wife and daughter's bathroom!
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On Apr 10, 8:53 am, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

ere the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to r un the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like th at? The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inche s from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clam p is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little con fused becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is used, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the run ners.

ler breaker? What would be the appropriate size?

ee. The previous electrician I think did have the neutral supply tied to th e ground. Not knowing any better, I coppied what he did.

black, and green to bare copper are attached to each other. I also added a ground wire to the metal case itself to the ground wire. (I have found sev eral instances in my house where the electrician failed to have a metal box attached to ground.
The fact that he did not have the metal box grounded settles any remainingn questions about his competence.

It is.
It was my mistake assuming that what the previous electrician did was correct concerning my range. (Or maybe it was correct when the house was built in 1997.)
No, it was not correct even then. Just for future reference, I would never use what someone did on a different appliance, ie cooktop vs oven, over the directions that come with the product you are installing.

Good luck. If it was the same electrician, who knows what you'll find there......
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