Ouch. Outside Amana central air conditioning unit. Compressor. $4000?

Yesterday, I called the co-president of "Comfort Energy", Yuka Abbot, at

408-263-3100.
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(formerly Comfort Zone Mechanical Air Company).

She was good enough to listen to what I had to say, which was mostly that neither my fan nor my compressor was working, but it had 24 volts as the contactor was working fine and the capacitor appeared undamaged. I explained the experience tracking down the wrong diagnosis cost me a couple hundred dollars and ten days and that I didn't want a little old lady to have the same problem in the future.

She said she'd have her husband, the VP, Harry Abbott, a former cop, call me, but, instead, they directed E.J. Hansen, the manager of the technicians to talk to me by phone. To his credit, he almost immediately did so.

He was personable, understanding, and said he'd call me on Wednesday to let me know the resolution.

I'm out two hundred dollars plus my compressor is (self) damaged as I was all this time trying to figure out what was wrong with it since they expressly told me it was the bad part. In doing so, I removed the lower heating thermoswitch, which turned out to not have any bearing on the problem (of course, since the entire AC system was working in the first place ... it just didn't have power).

I had taken that part to Marcone (who had never seen one before), and to APED (who likewise had never seen them) and to Appliance Parts on the Alameda in San Jose, who also had never seen it. However, John at Appliance parts kindly referred me to Northaire in northern San Jose who knew right away what it was. (Remember, it was Greg at Northaire who patiently explained to me there was no way a bad fan and bad compressor would be anything other than the capacitor, contactor, or bad power). When I explained the power readings I obtained both before and after the Comfort Energy visit, Greg stopped right there, and said "it's clear as day", you have only one leg of power.

A customer, Jim, a licensed electrician and A/C guy, offered to stop by to help me, and we exchanged calls and set up an appointment because he too said a lot of companies aren't truthful when dealing with air conditioners (which requires licensed technicians).

At that point, I finally realized that this is a 'special' case because we are FORCED to trust the LICENSED people to work on our A/C. Remember, I've talked to a dozen companies by now, and they all clam up when they realize that I'm not a licensed technician. They won't even tell me the price of a compressor! They certainly won't sell it to me. In fact, some expressed surprise that they'd sell me the contactor and/or capacitor!

Anyway, after all this, the problem embarrassingly, was simply that the circuit breaker was bad. There was only 120v at the A/C unit fuses instead of 240 volts. But they CLEARLY (and REPEATEDLY) told me the compressor was bad. They couldn't explain why the fan wasn' working which made no sense to me but I had to trust them as they're the experts, not me. And they're the only ones LICENSED to work on this A/C unit, not me!

Proving that point, unfortunately, I broke the plastic surrounds around that thermoswitch in the process. This bottom plug in simply warms the compressor oil, but now my compressor is likely to fail sooner simply because of the mis-diagnosis of a compressor failure by Comfort Energy.

The end result is that it cost me a compressor component, ten days, and two hundred dollars.

Yet, that's cheap compared to the $4000 they were desperately trying to sell me.

After talking to Yuka Abbott, and to E.J Hansen, I'm not sure which of the three possibilities (well, actually two) are correct:

  1. I'm wrong and the technician did a good job
Reply to
U vigilance
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Actually, Home Depot and Lowes only had 20/30 "ganged breakers" and they do work exactly as you noted. Since every other position on the main panel is the other hot lead, the two inside breakers are ganged with a metal clip (for the AC) and the two outside breakers are ganged with a U- shaped metal (for the dryer).

I had 30/30 breakers, which are much harder to find. But they're replaced now, one for one, and it's all testing and working fine. If only I hadn't trusted the LICENSED technician, I would have solved this problem ten days ago as soon as I figured out that the 120V reading of the fan and compressor was not correct (it should have been 240 volts).

Now, embarrassingly, I realize that's an obvious sign that it's NOT the compressor! But remember, I TRUSTED the LICENSED technician (and spoke to him for 40 minutes about it). He couldn't explain why the fan wasn't working; but he was positive the compressor was the culprit. How can I possibly second guess a LICENSED technician, especially when he's the ONLY ONE allowed to fix the problem (I'm not allowed to fix it, by law!).

My real estate agent referenced this company, Comfort Energy. She has been my savior with MANY problems, so I had every reason to trust the recommendation! Also, I must repeat, these people are LICENSED by someone. And, I'm not allowed to work on this unit. So, I have to trust them.

Of course, in hindsight, that trust was badly misdirected, but, all this time I had trusted their very definite opinion. In fact, the VP called me when I complained that the licensed technician's explanation made no sense to me, and he attempted to prove that the compressor was bad also as he said the voltage was "within 5%" and provided other details (saying the thermoswitch inside is bad because it didn't click) convincing me that the compressor was bad. That's when I went on my ten-day journey to find a good compressor to replace the 'bad' one.

PS: I use one nym per unrelated thread when I have more than one at the same time; but accidentally used the other nym in the previous post. Sorry for the confusion.

Reply to
arkland

Ooops. I use one nym per unrelated thread when I have more than one at the same time; but accidentally used this nym to respond. This should have been with the arkland nym. Sorry for the confusion.

Reply to
arkland

I'd say the embarrasing thing here is that you did not check for voltage at the unit as the first step. It doesn't get any more basic than that. Outside unit not running, first things to check are if it has voltage and if the contactor is closing.

Also, while from what you've described I think the compay is crooked, I don't see how they did anything to damage your compressor.

But remember, I TRUSTED the LICENSED technician (and spoke to

I second guess every contractor that I don't have a good deal of personal experience with. Also, you are legally allowed to fix some of the system. You just can't work on the refrigerant section doing anything that could possibly result in the release of refrigerant. In your case, the problem was something perfectly legal for you to fix, ie it not getting power.

Reply to
trader4

If you can get your $200 back, fine. Maybe the guy's honest and will fire or train his tech, maybe not. I'd still do the BBB complaint to try to protect the little old ladies Just remember licensing doesn't mean you're not dealing with a crook or incompetent. If you can't do the diagnosis yourself, when somebody says it'll cost you $4000, just get somebody else in. At $4000, I'd probably go to a 4th opinion. Honestly, I've never had this problem with repairs. When I had to replace my lift system pump I was willing to pay one joker about $1500 more than I ended up getting it done for, but that pales compared to your story. My Ma got taken by a chimney shaker for about 3 grand. Real sleazeball. Even me and 2 big brothers-in-law visiting the guy in his office couldn't shake the money loose. We didn't go beyond veiled threats. We wanted to think hard before become lawbreakers ourselves, In the meantime Ma filed a complaint with the States Attorney and got her money back in a few weeks. If I got screwed hard that's where I'd go. Beyond complaining, you shouldn't let it bother you too much. Too many crooks out there.

--Vic

Reply to
Vic Smith

I sympathize with you problem getting a competent guy to llok at it. But you shouldn't have just started removing parts you did not know what did or have any reason to believe the were bad. You really don't need the compressor oil heater if this is truly just an AC. You generally only need those on Heat Pumps. Once you start running an AC it's warm enough outside that you do not need to heat the compressor oil. Or is this another item you failed to tell us, this is really a heat pump?

Reply to
jamesgangnc

I don't know what a heat pump is, but this is 'only' an AC unit which is only used in the summer when it's hot.

Greg at Northaire, in San Jose, also told me that it's not 'needed', because it only heats the oil.

Please realize the ONLY reason I was 'removing things' is because the licensed technician was sure it was the compressor; otherwise, I wouldn't have removed the heating plug at the bottom of the compressor itself. (I thought it might be the bi-metallic strip they kept mentioning 'must be out'.

Reply to
arkland

Actually, I did. I checked voltage at the fuses right next to the A/C beforehand, and 'both' leads were the same 120volts! I thought that was weird, as there were 0 volts between them! (Now, I know, the circuit breaker must have been broken inside to allow that!). But I didn't know then that that's the way this thing worked (as I couldn't comprehend it so that's why I called the AC guy in).

Once the AC licensed technician told me the voltage was fine, I 'assumed' (yes, that's my mistake) he was right and therefore, the 'same'

120 volt line must be split up on the white and black lines going into that AC-only fuse panel. How wrong he was and how wrong I was to trust him.

A week or so later, when we finally had concluded the original licensed technician was either lying or outright incompetent, we measured again, and guess what? It was 28 volts at the one lead, and 120 across, and something like 85 volts between them!

By now, I knew enough to go to the circuit breaker, where I saw the same thing; and then, removing the outgoing wires from that circuit breaker, I could finally see the 0 volts on one lead and 120v on the other (with 120 on both leads going in).

Once the breaker was replaced, the normal 120 on each and 240 across resumed, and, the A/C unit worked (which never had a problem in the first place!).

Reply to
arkland

THEY didn't damage the compressor. I damaged it by trusting their licensed technician, but, not understanding why he said the compressor was clearly bad but he then couldn't explain why the fan wouldn't go on.

He was lying, of course, so none of his licensed bullshit made any sense to me, but he was VERY CLEAR on the compressor being definitely bad and the voltage input being definitely good!

I trusted this LICENSED technician but couldn't understand him fully (but I figured that's just the way AC works). It didn't help that everyone I called would barely talk to me once they found out I wasn't a licensed trusted technician myself.

So I had to figure it all out from you guys, and, the four store's parts people:

- Appliance Parts Equipment Distributor (Stevenscreek Blvd, San Jose)

- Appliance Parts (El Camino Real, San Jose)

- Marcone Appliance Parts (Race Street, San Jose)

- NorthAire (Zanker Street, San Jose)

If it weren't for you guys, and those four counter people (and multiple calls to Amana, Hier America, Emerson, & Copeland Compressors), I'd never have figured out the problem and would have gone with replacing the entire system.

The problem now, is that the little old ladies are getting fleeced by this company. Unless they tell me otherwise on the call next Wednesday!

Reply to
arkland

SOMEBODY must 'license' these licensed technicians.

I'm sure there must be a board specific for AC licensing that would care about the facts of this situation.

Reply to
arkland

He's right, you do not need the compressor heater if it's straight ac. Once it's hot eough for you to need ac then it's hot enough for the compressor oil.

The bimetalic strip is a overload switch inside the compressor. Completely non-servicable.

The tech and you may have both been mislead if you used a newer high impedance meter and the unit was turned off. A bad connection can still allow enough current to make a meter think it has 120vac. As soon as you put an actual load on the cicuit it will drop way down, sometimes to zero. It always pays to turn whatever you are testing on when measuring voltages. That way you have a load on the circuit.

Reply to
jamesgangnc

What 'was' weird, was that, at first, before I called in the licensed technician, I read off my Fluke 77 DMM 120 VAC on both the black and white lead coming in ... but zero volts between them.

Again, that was not what I expected (I had expected 220 VAC between them), but, at that time, I wasn't sure how the wiring worked. (Now I know better - and so should have, IMHO, the licensed technician).

Then the licensed technician came in, and said the compressor was bad. When I called the company to ask why then the fan wasn't also working, they said the technician, "Matt", had tested the voltage to be "within

5%" and that he was sure it was the compressor that was bad.

I spent the next week or so tracking down compressors ... but about ten days after the first measurement (after the circuit breaker had been turned on and off perhaps a dozen or more times during the tests of the compressor), the voltage changed!

It was then 120 vols at one wire, and only 25 volts AC at the other wire. Across the two was about 85 volts. Weird!

I instantly knew now, that the problem had NOTHING to do with the AC; it was all about the input voltage (and I'm embarrassed to say it took me this long to figure something that simple out - but again - I had trusted the LICENSED technician who said the voltage was "within 5%").

Back at the circuit panel, the same 120v, 25 volts existed, until I disconnected the wiring and then the one side went to zero.

When I replaced the 30/30amp ganged (two in the middle, two on the outside) breaker, everything worked just fine.

BTW, why would 25 volts exist on the circuit breaker output terminal when the circuit breaker wires were connected, but zero volts on that line when I pulled the wire out of the circuit breaker output terminal?

Reply to
arkland

To update the team, the company manager of the technicians called me on Wednesday and said they were re-training their technician, Matt, and that they would pay me $200 for my out-of-pocket and other expenses in addition to not charging me for their initial service call.

I must say they appeared 'reasonable' when confronted with the facts (only the technician himself, and the Comfort Energy VP, who is the husband of the owner of Comfort Energy) 'argued' with me that the compressor was definitely bad. He only backed off when I told him I wasn't paying anything until I had that, and the measurements, in writing.

I guess a moral of the story is to get in writing all measurements, whenever you're in an area beyond your expertise (which I clearly was, in this case).

Without you guys, I would never have been able to track down the problem (and the helpful counter guy, Greg, at Northaire in San Jose!).

Reply to
arkland

That's one of the things you have to watch for with high impedance digital meters. A very bad connection that is megohms will give you enough current flow to show something on a meter when there is no load on the circuit. Always test with the device turned on. In your case I'll bet the reading would have been zero if the contactor was engaged.

Reply to
jamesgangnc

You should give that Fluke to someone that knows how to use it. If you can't use it to figure out that 240V is not at the outside unit, you should not be screwing around with it. End of story. Taking parts out of a working AC without figuring out if it has power is just plain stupid. The tech you had out is a crook. But you are a fool to be working on something that you haven't got a clue about.

Yeah, the tech should have. And so should you if you're gonna start screwing around with it.

What;s weird is someone screwing around with eqpt when they are clueless.

It's not about trusting someone else. It's about knowing what you are doing. You think if you took you car to a service shop they would say, well the last guy said the O2 sensor was OK, so no need to look there?

Frightening to think you're inside the panel.

Reply to
trader4

Are you totally stupid? They clearly tried to rip you off. That isn't a mistake, it;s deliberate. And now you're implying that you'd pay them if they had "measurements in writing?" WTF? They told you the compressor was shot and the power to the unti was OK. You found out that it was a bad breaker and after replacing it, it's running OK. So, WTF are you talking about?

Yeah, that's for sure. You're not even an educated consumer let alone competent to work on an AC. Give the Fluke to someone who can use it.

It's remarkable you didn't get killed in the process.

Reply to
trader4

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