Ouch. Outside Amana central air conditioning unit. Compressor. $4000?

Yikes!

The Amana compressor part number was discontinued!

- Compressor P/N $500 = 10481808

Reply to
arkland
Loading thread data ...

You probably have more information than you need, but I will add one more comment and a story:

Comment: If the serviceman measured proper voltage at the compressor leads, it is almost certainly the compressor. This means the wires going into the compressor, NOT at the point of crimp on leads.

The story: I bought a newly constructed home back in the 70's, and the next year one of my two AC condenser units failed to start. Knowing the unit was still under warranty, I called the firm who had installed it when the house was built. The fellow came out and in less than 5 minutes told me the compressor had gone bad. This without having taken a single measurement with a voltmeter. (I was astounded, as my field is electronics and I knew he could not possibly make such a diagnosis without having taken such a measurement.) I watched saying nothing until he said the compressor was bad, to which I said "Since it is under warranty, then replace it." He then told me it would cost me $500 since the warranty only covered parts and I must pay for the labor. I told him I would think it over, and he left. I got my voltmeter and measured no voltage at the coil leads of the contactor. So I followed the leads from the coil back to a spot where they met with the leads coming from the thermostat and electrical tape existed. The problem was the installer simply twisted the control wire from the thermostat to the leads leading to the contactor and oxidation prevented contact. I cleaned the leads and soldered them. My effort took about 5 minutes total. The unit ran for another 29 years!!!!

Reply to
Ken

the compressor

he 70's, and the

You can't confirm a compressor is bad just because it has voltage at the compressor terminals. There is a run cap and possibly a start cap. You need to make sure those are ok. It's also possible to get more life out of a compressor that wants to strat but can't by adding a hard start kit. You can tell if it's trying to start by pushing in the large relay (called a contactor in the hvac business) and listening. Helps if you disconnect the fan motor. You can hear the compressor trying to start. It will do that a bit until the internal protection kicks out. Usually will try for 10, 15 seconds or so. If you have done it before you know the difference in sounds a running compressor makes from one that is trying to start.

Reply to
jamesgangnc

Hmmm... That's what the service tech said. He said the voltage was good, but even a whack with a mallet didn't start the compressor (I'm not making this up even though that sounds strange).

I have the old cap and the new cap in my hand.

It's fist sized, with three terminals on top, one marked "G", the other "HERM", and the third "FAN".

The parts counter guy said if the cap it bad, it will look bulged. Mine looked fine; but, of course, I didn't test it.

Tell me more!

I also bought a new contactor (it's on order) but the old one, while pitted, was still working. It moved in and out with an audible click and visible motion. But there was NO SOUND whatsoever from the compressor; and the fan didn't go on either.

I wonder why the fan won't go on?

Reply to
arkland

Nice link. I found out more from talking to Copeland, now Emerson.

Copeland Technical Support (937-498-3926) told me that the motor is definitely available. They said the third section of my part number (i.e., the "270" in CR32K6-PFV-270) is merely the "BOM", which they said is meaningless from the standpoint of replacing it.

They said the second part of the triad, the PFV, is merely the voltage.

So, they say, the important part is the first set of numbers.

They provided two distributors to call in my area: RSD 408-297-9453 Baker 408-436-4950

The first can get it, but, they changed the part number from: CR32K6-PFV-270 ==> discontinued in favor of CR32K6-PFV-970

So I called Copeland back, and they confirm that the CR32K6-PFV-970 is right.

Calling the second, they can only get the CR33KQ-PFV-980WB, so I have a call into Copeland to see if 'that' part number is kosher.

Meanwhile, I find the local distributors are:

- Marcone 408-275-9951

Reply to
arkland

Emerson (aka Copeland) technical support (937-498-3926)just called me back with MORE information.

Even though it was 5:30am my time, I was glad to field the call.

He explained the "270", in the CR32K6-PFV-270 single-phase compressor, is merely the "bill of materials", and the 200-series was for the OEM's of the air conditioning unit itself (where 270 is Haier American who sold to Amana).

He said that's 100% equivalent to the CR32K6-PFV-970, where the 900 series is for wholesale distributors (i.e., what I would want to buy).

Similarly, the CR32K6-PFV-875 is the same compressor with a different molded plug; again, it would work and is apparently ubiquitously found.

For completeness, he said the 500 series was for overseas.

More importantly, he said the fan has nothing to do with the AC compressor so he suggested something else must be amiss.

He also said to not only check voltage, but to check voltage AT the compressor itself, particularly there should be 230VAC between the Common and Run coils.

More importantly, he said to check the resistance & he provided the specs:

  1. Start to Common = 3.20 ohms +/- 7%
  2. Run to Common = 0.75 ohsm +/- 7%
  3. Start to Run = Add those two up (I guess then the error would be +/-
1.4%)

Lastly, he postulated only one of three things is the real problem: a) Open windings (the resistance test will determine that) b) No power to the compressor (must remove cover off the terminal box at the compressor itself & pull the wires off the compressor to test at this point!) c) Compressor is locked up

So, even though I had scheduled a visit by another company (who said they don't like people looking over their shoulders), I think I'll tell them to wait a day and I'll check it out myself.

Oh, BTW, he said a brownout usually causes the bimetallic strip to overheat but it generally doesn't fail unless it's kept that way for a long long time. He does not think it's that.

He did say the power surge 'could' blow the motor - but he didn't offer any way to tell for sure.

I do thank you all for your kind help and I appreciate that you don't have to help me. Now it's time for me to do some homework!

PS: He said the fan should have gone on nonetheless so he would suspect a power problem.

Reply to
arkland

In California it may very well be against the law for an unlicensed person to work on that kind of stuff... They have some pretty whacked- out laws about environmental protection, and older refrigerants like R22 are pretty nasty to the environment.

Now stop wasting money on the parts shotgun, and get a pro in to fix it. Either that or suffer in the heat.

Reply to
mkirsch1

I agree. By the time you finish you will have spent more money replacing perfectly good parts than it would cost you to have a competent service guy fix it. Ask your neighbors or relatives who they have had good experieces with. Or use angies list.

You don't have any of the equipment needed to work on this stuff anyway. At a minumum you need a good meter and a set of guages. To replace anything involving the refrigerant you need a vacuum pump and a recovery tank too.

Reply to
jamesgangnc

Not just California. Per EPA regulations, it's illegal for anyone to work on that AC system without being licensed. That includes the homeowner.

Reply to
trader4

It's not a license and it's only required to charge or recover the refrigerant. The epa does not care if you replace a cap or the contactor yourself or have a service guy do it. And the basic certificate is fairly simply to get. I got one so I could service my own units.

Reply to
jamesgangnc

OK, technically it's called "certification", meaning you've taken the required training and passed a test. Does it really matter if it's called a license or certification? And it covers any work that could result in release of refrigerant, including just hooking up gauges, which is one of the most basic service checks.

I agree you can replace the cap or the contactor. But clearly the discussion taken in context mentioned the issues that prohibit the typical homeowner from working on their own system and R22 was specifically mentioned. It was in that context that I formed my reply.

Reply to
trader4

It's September. I'm going to look for a class, for the future, in one of those 'night schools' for adults!

Can't be any harder than scuba diving.

Reply to
arkland

I'm embarrassed to report back this repair isn't completed yet, but, I will say it took a completely different turn today.

I brought the "heater" core from the bottom of the compressor into three different AC appliance parts warehouses today, and, while two didn't know what it was, the third explained that it's for heating the oil that falls cold to the bottom of the compressor during disuse.

While there, the counter guy showed me a similar 2 1/2 ton system that had similar components. While we were discussing what could be wrong (he didn't think it was the compressor), we mentioned that the power was 120V to one side and 120V to the other but zero volts between the two.

I checked it again today, and got (weirdly) different readings of 120 vac on one side, and 28 vac on the other hot wire at the fuse.

So I went to the circuit breaker in the main panel, and lo and behold,

120vac on one leg with 28 vac on the other leg!

Removing the wire from the circuit breaker I got 120vac from one side and

0vac on the other.

So, it appears, the problem was, after all, that the PG&E power outage (brownout) damaged the 30 amp ganged circuit breaker.

Unfortunately, this circuit breaker is 'wired' (with a copper wire) to 3 others, all 30 amps (the other two for the dryer), but I was able to find, after visiting quite a few electrical supply houses, a quad 30 amp circuit breaker to fit into the panel (since the panel is otherwise full so it couldn't take two separate 220v 30 amp circuit breakers).

Unfortunately, the bus bar is too thick for the circuit breaker, so I'll have to go back tomorrow and get one that has a wider opening. But, I'm confident that this is the real problem.

If so (and I'll let you know), then the AC company that checked it out first were lying cheats since they said that the voltage was within 5% of what it should be.

It wasn't even 50% of what it should be (since it was only 120 and not

220!).

Now I'm really mad at the company - but first - I have to see if the new circuit breaker (30 amp x 4, in two gangs) will fit on the bus bar which is thicker than the opening.

Reply to
arkland

I'm steaming mad. Either the company I sent out was incompetent, or, worse yet, they're lying cheats!

They tried so hard to sell me on a new A/C unit for $4000, I should have known. They 'said' it was the 'compressor'. They 'said' the voltage "was within 5%". Guess what?

The problem had NOTHING to do with the air conditioning! The problem was merely that the 30-amp quad ganged circuit breaker was broken. Of the four 30-amp 120v circuits, one was 0 volts.

When I replaced the breaker (it wasn't easy to find a 30-amp quad breaker), everything worked just fine.

What steams me is I can't for the life of me figure out whether the air conditioning company was lying or if they were simply incompetent!

But, I'm so mad, I want to write them a letter! What else do you suggest?

Reply to
arkland

In this case incompetence and lying is pretty much the same thing.

I'd call them up and just tell them how you resolved it. And mention that the BBB and anybody I know will hear about how they do business. That should blow off some of your steam. They'll probably hang up on you. I never had this kind of problem with getting stuff fixed. Maybe because I tell them up front I'll pay for the service call, but if I don't like what they say I'll get somebody else in.

--Vic

Reply to
Vic Smith

I looked it up and you probably meant the Better Business Bureau. I see there is a process to file a complaint, so, I will do so (I've never dealt with a BBB before, even though I'm an old guy).

It's not so much for me that I'm upset; what about the little old ladies who don't know enough to realize something was amiss. These guys were trying to take me for a ride. I can publish their name & address here, but the better part of valor would be to formally complain to the BBB as you suggested.

In hindsight, I feel kind of stupid though.

I took for granted that the wiring was OK (especially since they said they "tested it to be within 5%"). So for the past 10 days, I've been concentrating on the AC unit (learning how it works and replacing the capacitor and controller).

I should have started with the basics, i.e., "is it plugged in", which, (in effect) it turned out to be.

When I talk to them, I'm going to ask for a reduced bill!

That's good advice. I think they took me for a fool, which, embarrassingly, I was. I believed them. Next time I'll tell them to give me a diagnosis, and if it comes with an estimate, that I'll get three good estimates before choosing. Words to the wise.

Reply to
arkland

I never heard of a state contractor's board. I'm in California, in Santa Clara County. Lemme look that up...

It looks like I can file a complaint here:

formatting link
I'm confused though as this "state contractors board" seems to be for 'new construction' only.

The company that I'm complaining about is called "Comfort Energy",

408-263-3100.
formatting link

They came recommended to me by someone I know well (who has been kept informed of the progress all along).

I can't tell from their web site if they're a big company, but, they've been in business since 1929 it seems and they seem to do new construction as well as old.

I just filled out a "contact me" form at the Comfort Energy web site and I will see what I can do about filling out a complaint at the State Contractor's License Board site too!

Thanks for the advice. I'm embarrassed it took me this long, but, it was partly because Comfort Energy told me the compressor was bad, so, I was tracking down the wrong rabbit all along!

Reply to
arkland

Heh heh. I love that idea!

There may be a bigger (hidden) point in the joke which is that it's just not worth the time and energy.

You may be right. I've never filed a complaint before but I'd really hate to see someone get reamed by Comfort Energy who doesn't at least have the friends like you guys helping out.

What if a little old lady or someone too busy to double check them gets told their $4000 AC is out when all it is is a $25 bad circuit breaker?

Reply to
arkland

I'd say there is no question they were lying. It would be almost impossible to misdiagnose a bad circuit breaker for a compressor failure.

I'd ask for a refund of the service call fee. If they won't refund it, I'd sue them in small claims. Should be an interesting case to defend. With the receipt for the breaker, some photos of the compressor and/or a video camera showing the system working you'd have a very credible case.

BBB is an option as well.

Reply to
trader4

For what it's worth, that is more commonly called a ganged breaker and you do not need all 4 to be ganged if two are for your hvac and two are for your dryer. You can use the much more common two ganged breakers from lowes or home depot. They are ganged so that a short on either leg causes both legs to disconnect. You don't need a short in one appliance taking the other off line.

In your case I'm guessing the electrician had a 4 gang breaker handy and used it.

Glad to hear your compressor was not bad. If you mentioned that he fan was not starting either earlier in your post many of us could have told you that does not suggest the compressor. Both are powered from the contactor. It's unlikely that both would have failed at the same time.

While it was a learning experience had you known a reliable service guy you could have got it fixed on a single call for less than you have spent. It might be worth your while to talk to your neighbors about who they have had good results with.

Reply to
jamesgangnc

HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.