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Peter A wrote:

I'll put you down as undecided.
According to Walmart, the "save a few bucks" is much more. The company, again according to them, has saved lower-income Americans more money than all the welfare programs combined (Social Security, Medicare, food stamps, WIC, etc.).
As for mistreating employees, we did away with slavery in the Second War of Independence - employees are certainly permitted to find better places to work.
When a WalMart store opened in Jaunary of last year, across the street from Chicago, the store advertised for 325 positions. They got 25,000 applications, 90% from Chicago ZIP codes (Chicago itself doesn't allow Walmart stores). Must be a lot of masochists in the Chicago area if Walmart is as Draconian as some believe.
Disrespect for the environment? Walmart is committed to selling 100 million CFLs this year and has several other programs in the works (fuel efficiency for its trucks, recycling, re-use, etc.), including demonstration stores in McKinney, Texas, Lawrence, Kansas, and Oklahoma and California.
The store I visit (140,000 sq ft) has skylights and use almost no electric lighting during the day. Do you have any large retail stores in your area that do the same? Any?
The percentage of Walmart employees availing themselves of Walmart's health insurance plan is slightly better than retailing as a whole (48% vs 45%). Those employees that do use public health insurance (mainly Medicare) are part-timers who are wholly eligible.
I understand your complaint about moving manufacturing to China, but Adam Smith settled this complaint in the 18th Century with "The Wealth of Nations."
Some people just don't keep up.
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says...

"According to WalMart." Gee, the font of truth. But I agree, WalMart has provided lower prices to many Americans. At the same time it has lowered wages and forced a lot of people into a situation where they have no choice but to scrounge for the very lowest prices. Often, because their jobs have vanished thanks to WalMart.

Except that those "better places to work" no longer exist because WalMart has driven them out of business or out of the country.

Not masochists, but desperate people who have nowhere else to work because WalMart has driven other retail stores out of business and has pushed manufacturing overseas.

WalMart has indeed done various things that are good for the environment. You miss my point, however. They do these things for one and only one reason - to reduce costs and increase profits. All well and good, but it's still a corporation motivated solely by greed and not by public good. When it helps the bottom line, the environment can go to hell. Of course, WalMart is hardly alone in this, but they seem particularly venal and insensitive.

Medicare is for old folks, perhaps you mean Medicaid.
Your stats may be true, but so what? No other company comes remotely close to WalMart in terms of the drain on the public treasury to provide health care for its employees. It's shameful that I and other taxpayers have to pay many millions to provide health care for workers who are helping WalMart to rake in billions in profits.
Look at the way Target treats its employees. Look at CostCo. Both are popular and profitable companies, not without their faults, but way ahead of WalMart in every way.
Frankly, you sound like a WalMart stooge. Perhaps you are just trying to justify your shopping there.
--
Peter Aitken

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Peter A wrote:

Possibly. 95% of Walmart employees shop at Walmart.

The more manufacturing we can push overseas, the better for all of us. As Adam Smith said (I mentioned him earlier), each country should do what it does best and when that happens each country prospers.

As for "increasing profits," every one of their demonstration stores runs at a loss for the enviornmental test. For example, they are attempting to heat the stores with reclaimed grease/oil/something. There is no way, according to them, they can recover the cost of installing the system. But it's a learning test.
By the way, greed is good. The poor cannot donate to charity.

Ah, you've not been to Walmart.

I agree that no other company comes close. Walmart is the largest employer in the country.

You recall that Target evicted the Salvation Army kettle people. Walmart not only welcomes them but often donates an employee to ring the bell if the Army is short-handed.

Frankly, you sound like a union goon. Perhaps you resent people working for an honest day's pay.
(See, I can insult with the best of them.)
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says...

LOL, guess why? They can't afford to shop anywhere decent.

Define "best." In terms of China, "best" means simply "cheapest." Along with the low price you get poison petfood, lead-tainted toys, terrible environmental damage, workers in near-slavery situations, etc. To me, that's far from "best."
Don't get me wrong, I do not advocate protectionism just for the sake of keeping jobs here. When imports are available that are high quality and produced in a morally and environmentally responsible fashion, I am all for it.

A test to see if the system can save them money in the long run.

Good for Target. I dislike any group that makes pushing their religion on people part of their charity work. In any case, this was all explained in the press. Target had nothing against the SA per se, but felt that in fairness they would have to allow all charitable groups to collect at their stores if they allowed any.
WalMart's support of a blatantly Christian charity is touching. I wonder how they would support a Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, or atheist group collecting money at their stores?

If only walMart would let all of its employees do so! Instead it's forced unpaid overtime, forced off-the-clock work, and gender discrimination.
How does WalMart treat its employees? When meatpackers at a Texas store voted to unionize, WalMart closed all of its meatpacking operations, putting god knows how many employees out of work. When employees at a store in Canada voted to unionize, WalMart closed the store putting everyone out of work.
Thanks for the interesting discussion - I've said all I have to say.
--
Peter Aitken

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Peter A wrote:

"Best" means the same or equivalent product for the same or less money.

But what about the people (here) who WANT lower quality (at a lower price) or who WANT children in Sri Lanka to work for twenty-five cents a day (as opposed to starving). Rephrase: What about the people HERE who want the standard of living of ALL countries to improve? Would you deprive them of the opportunity.
It's difficult to believe that my buying a tennis shoe made by six-year olds in Bangladesh who work twelve hours a day, six days a week, is improving their lot -- but it is.

Saving money is good.

Uh, the SA is a non-prosletysing organization. As for "fairness," phooey. Target doesn't have to be "fair." Or even courteous.
In my view, there are thing a business should not do, simply because it offends their potential customers: Burning flags, banishing children, supporting terrorism, not allowing employees to say "Merry Christmas," and evicting the Salvation Army. Mind you, I'm not a Christian, but I do respect and support national traditions.

Good point. Bottom line: Their store, their rules.

Good. Texas is a right-to-scab state. Most here don't like unions. Maybe that's why we have 300-odd Walmarts?
My ex-boss once proposed to his boss that their company hire a driver to distribute the paychecks to the various companies for whom they prepared payroll instead of being at the mercy of delivery services. Boss said maybe.
Couple of days later, the boss said a representative of the corporation's president was flying in to discuss the matter.
The representative met with my guy and told him the answer was "No," but that he deserved an explanation and that the explanation could not be written down.
The corporation, the representative explained, had over 250,000 employees and not a one was in a union. A "driver" would be eligible for membership in the Teamsters and, if there ever was a disagreement, that one employee could effectively close the entire corporation.
The company for whom my friend worked was SBC, a wholly-owned subsidiary of IBM.
The result was that SBC continued to be at the mercy of drunken or missing delivery service drivers (who may or may not have been in the Teamsters).

Yeah, I remember that one. A secret ballot went against the union, so the union went to plan B: certification cards and the union got a majority with the card certification method. Walmart closed the store; 160 people out of work. See, it isn't the difference between $8/hr and $9/hr; it's the difference between $8/hr and nothing (likewise in Bangladesh: $3/wk or nothing).
Evidently Walmart doesn't like unions either. Their store, their rules.
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HeyBub wrote: ...

...
For a suitable definition of "improving".
Convincing oneself it is true also makes it much easier to sleep at night, undoubtedly...
--
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Blame the legislators for that one. If they want to save taxpayers money, legislators are free to cut off this supposed public health subsidy.
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In article snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com says...

There is one in Chicago now.

WalMart is selling out America allowing the Chinese to dump goods into this market crippling our manufacturing base. Once we can't manufacture anything we are dependent upon foreign nations, such as China, to build anything. One of America's greatest strengths post WWII came from its ability to build lots and lots of shit.
China refuses to float its currency thus making its goods cheaper than they really are. Dumping is technically illegal in this country in that it eliminates competition destroying a free market but somehow no one in Congress can do anything about China now -- thanks to WalMart. China plans decades and centuries ahead. Wall Street plans for the next quarter. By owning so much US Debt and US dollars China already can cripple this nation economically more than any terrorist or 1000 terrorists could do in any attack or coordinated attacks.
That hillbillies from Texas are fanboys of Walmart because they save a few dollars on whatever useless crap they're too stupid not to buy does not surprise me. Ironically WalMart started out selling only US made goods and marketed itself as the ultimate American company. Too many people probably think this is still true when in reality, WalMart's pursuit of profits by allowing itself to be a conduit for cheap Chinese goods could one day destroy our economy.
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You may be right, but the American consumer is complicit in this. WalMart would not have any success unless the consumer bought the stuff. We used to have a choice but there is not much made in USA left.
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on 9/5/2007 11:58 PM Mark Anderson said the following:

It is a law in the US that every product have its country of manufacturing on the label, box, or other visible place. Go into any store in the US and pick up a piece of clothing, shoes, hardware, computer product, or just about anything else. See where it's made. Even better, read the label on something you already bought and is in your house. It's not just WalMart that sells outsourced products.
<rest snipped>
--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
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In article snipped-for-privacy@00hvc.rr.com says...

WalMart built their business model around this concept and drastically increased importation from China, so much so they import more from China than entire countries. If WalMart were a country they'd be something like China's 6th largest export partner. WalMart invaded every area of the country driving out its competition. They dealt with suppliers similarly. If suppliers couldn't beat the falsely lower price of Chinese made goods, the US supplier went out of business. WalMart being so big has that much influence on its suppliers. One by one medium to smaller manufacturers just shut their doors because they couldn't compete with imported goods from China.
The imported goods from China aren't necessarily cheaper though. China manipulates their currency to make sure their goods sell cheaper in our markets.
Strategically China wants to weaken our manufacturing capability and they couldn't have done so without the help of WalMart. Every other company sells Chinese goods as well but none have the market power of WalMart -- which built itself with the help of China.
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Mark Anderson wrote:

Do you want to go back to 1950? Think dentistry.
If China or Bangladesh can make something better or cheaper, we should encourage them to do so. We both benefit.

That's one way - the wrong way - to look at it. Our economy is far better off with cheaper products than without.
We can have more stuff.
Consider the "poor" in the US (according to the US Census):
43% own their own homes* 80% live in air conditioned homes* 66% of these homes average 2 rooms per person 75% of poor households own a car* 97% own a color TV, 51% own 2 or more color TVs* 62% have cable or satellite TV 89% own a microwave oven*
(The items marked "*" have a significant foreign component.)
As for WW2, today's "poor" are, on average, one inch taller and ten pounds heavier than the GIs on the beach at Normandy.
Your complaint is with the buying public, not Walmart or China. The buying public has simply voted with their dollars and democracy rules.
The only way to reverse the trend is with government intervention: tariffs or outright prohibition of imported goods. Will the public accept the absence of DVD players or TV sets? Can you get along without nails, screws, or even thumb-tacks?
Well, maybe thumb-tacks.
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In article snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com says...

China refuses to float its currency so its products can remain cheaper. This is called dumping. Dumping is the practice of underpricing your competition less than what it costs to make a product for the sole purpose of driving them out of business. After you become the sole provider you can jack prices up again to recoup your earlier losses.
China used this economic tool to close down the American manufacturing base, thus weakening us. Had China floated their currency like every other country their products wouldn't be so cheap and the trade imbalance between US and them wouldn't be so great. Currencies float to even out trade imbalances. Every month China increases its stake in the US economy. Their long term goal is to hold us hostage. So far Congress fears what China can do now if they ever choose to dump their US debt or US dollars onto the market. The only reason they don't because they are still building up their empire.
One day they'll buy a high tech military and weapon systems with your money that rival or exceed ours. Meanwhile, they'll still be able to manufacture goods and we won't. At any time they can send earthquakes through our economy destroying more of America than any carrier fleet loaded with cruise missiles ever could.

Your ignorance of economics is astounding. It's not "democracy," it's the economics stupid. People don't "vote" with their dollars, they buy the cheapest goods. In economics 101 they teach you the concept of a supply/demand curve. The lower the price, the higher the volume that goes to them.

If China won't float their currency we should have implemented tariffs a long time ago. It's too late now though. A trade war with China may cause them to use some of their legal economic weapons against us -- like dumping the US dollar. We can only hope China will be a benevolent master in the year 2025 or so when their economy exceeds ours.
But you must thank WalMart for this. They pioneered the concept of building their entire business model around selling out America by providing us goods for far less than they should be possible. WalMart made huge short term profits at the expense of the US economy and US security. Remember one old saying that's still true, "There's no free lunch." Through conduits like WalMart we've been enjoying a free lunch through ultra cheap prices. The tab for that bill will come in another decade or two.
Meanwhile, enjoy your cheap DVD and TV.
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Yep, and Japan did exactly the same thing at one time.

Nope, dumping is something else entirely, selling stuff at below cost.

Yep.
Nope, it can also be done to get rid of excess stock.

Doesnt ever happen.

Or its better to get something for your excess stock than nothing.

Nope, it aint been closed down, most obviously with cars and aircraft.

Wrong again. Manufacturing what china sells is a very small part of any modern first world economy and the economy benefits from the low cost goods from that country.
It didnt even have a significant effect on the unemployment rate given that its still 4.x%, one of the lowest in the entire world.

There are others that havent floated their currency.

Yes, but it would still happen. Thats what Japan did eventually and the trade imbalance was still a problem when they did.

Its MUCH more complicated than that. There is STILL a trade imbalance with Japan.

Nope, just increases their collection of US dollars.

Fantasy. Their long term goal is to provide much of the worlds manufacturered goods.

Congress has never had a clue about that sort of thing.

The real reason they dont do that is because the US is their biggest market and they arent stupid enough to damage the US economy because that would result in less sales of what they manufacture.

Another fantasy and it doesnt matter if they do, nukes have changed things forever and they wont be stupid enough to try doing anything much with them.
They wont even be stupid enough to try taking Taiwan back, you watch.

The US can manufacture again if that makes sense.

And since the US is their biggest customer, they aint actually that stupid.
Just like the Japs never were that stupid either.

Yours in spades.

They do effectively.

Some do, some dont.

And in economics 101 they also teach about elastic and inelastic demand, you obviously slept thru that.

Nope, that would just have produced higher priced goods and they would still have come from china anyway.

They aint that stupid, only you are.

Those with the largest economy dont get to be masters.
And while Japan did eventually end up with quite a bit of manufacturing, the full commercialisation of virtually all technology still continued to happen in the US first regardless. And there is no sign of that stopping any time soon, most obviously with the internet, google, paypal etc etc etc.

Have fun explaining how come it happened in countrys where Walmart doesnt bother with.

Mindlessly silly.

The US economy is doing fine and still manages to produce an unemployment rate of 4.x%

Mindlessly silly. The US is still the only world military power of any significance.

It aint about free lunches, its actually about manufacturing being only a very small part of any modern first world economy.

Cant even work out the difference between free and cheap.

The same mindless claim was made about Japan too.

We'll be doing that forever. And we will start to see much cheaper cars eventually too.
Fools like you get to like that or lump it.
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Nancy2 wrote:

What makes you think it wasn't local?
Bill
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The OP said "WalMart." WalMart is not a locally-owned store. It's a WalMart-owned store. My comment could have been worded more accurately (locally-owned, for example), but most of the readers knew what I meant.
N.
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Nothing. That's what you get for shopping at Wal-Mart. Errors in advertisements and zero compensation unless you choose to sue.
                --Blair
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Good grief! Why would that friend expect anything extra? If you bought a blender that was supposed to be 7 speeds and you got one with 5, would they replace it and give you a free set of measuring cups as a consolation prize? NO. You'd just be happy they exchanged it for you. You'd also be glad they said "sorry" and gave you the one you wanted in the first place.
Buyer Beware! (Of course, "size" can be diminished by the OS)
--

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A day\'s work for the chicken, a lifetime commitment for the pig.
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si esto no es un error el equipo dice.. 252 Mb de video GMA X3100 ojo (252) y en las especificaciones del portatil dice --> 1G Ram = 1024 mb entonces
1024 252 - --------- 772 Mb -----> esta es la RAM libre.. en las especificaiones dice 252 Mb de video (SHARE) compartido .. solo es un poco de desconociemiento de las cosas... de todos modos el computador es ta muy barato.. porque tiene un procesador CELERON M estos son nuevos procesadores de pentium son los llamados roseta. y la acelaradora GMA X3100 es excelente para correr con la mierda de windows vista... entonces en alguna otra parte encontraran un portatil a 348 ?????? HAA?? piensenlo.. pero ya no hay nada que pensar. lso computadores se acabaron a los 15 minutos, la gente hizo espera desde las 4 de la maana ... les recomiendo que esten pendientes para el proximo jueves en la noche o viernes en la maana... quedan 3 viernes negros
----------- English----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if this is not an error the team he/she says.. 252 Mb of video GMA X3100 eye (252) and in the specifications of the portable one he/she says--> 1G Ram = 1024 mb then
1024 252 - --------- 772 Mb-----> this it is the free RAM.. in the especi 252 Mb of video says (SHARE) shared.. alone it is some desconociemiento of the things... anyway the computer is very cheap ta.. because this a processor CELERON M these they are new pentium processors they are the calls roseta. and the acelaradora GMA X3100 is excellent to run with the windows vista seen... then in some other part they did find a portable one at $348?????? HAA?? does think it.. but is anything no longer to think. lso computers finished to the 15 minutes, people made wait from 4 in the morning... I recommend them that they are pending for next Thursday in the night or Friday in the morning... they are 3 black Friday
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