So, what IS torture. The classic definition is the infliction of severe pain. Many definitions now include infliction of severe mental distress. Some would consider all of the following to be "torture:"
Waterboarding - there is no pain, but there is exceptional panic.
Sleep deprivation
Continuous playing of Lawrence Welk music
Smearing of menstrual blood on the subject
Exposing the subject to pictures of nude women
Abusing the subject's family in his presence
Mock execution of the subject's co-terrorists
Food provided smells funny
None of these fit the classic definition of "severe pain." All probably fit the expanded definition of mental anguish.
In my view, the "mental distress" button is a slippery-slope. Once acknowledged, there is no limit to what COULD be so described (i.e., incarceration, deprivation of mail privileges, etc.).
Of course interrogation, enhanced or otherwise, elicits usable information. There wouldn't be any point to the process otherwise. We're not talking about confessions, we're talking about actionable intelligence:
What is the password to this encrypted file?
Where is the bomb?
Where can we find Achmed al-BoomBoom?
How did you get on the base?
As to your point about enhanced interrogation acting as an incentive for others to join the queue, if that is true, then the terrorists are dumber than even I think they are.
Sometimes a bargain can be struck. Tell me what I want to know and I'll give you a cookie. Regrettably, as someone who has interrogated hundreds (as a police officer), I can tell you that it is rare to depend on catharsis to get the facts. Quite often, you have to beat the shit out of the suspect to even get his name!
It's not a question of "dumb" or "smart". You need to understand that these people think differently from us. We -- esp. the Jews -- celebrate LIFE. The Islamists celebrate DEATH. [Note my careful usage of ISLAMISTS, not Islamics].
Yes, this is very hard to understand, bu do try. Look at their writings, their culture, the preaching of their mullahs. They are indoctrinated from very young -- as well as with actual sections of the Koran -- to believe that this life is only a preparation for the next (which I guess they have in common with SOME Christians). Many of them actually believe that if they blow themselves and 'n' "infidels", they will go straight to their version of heaven and enjoy, etc,etc.etc.
A culture that can do what some Palestinians did a few years ago does think differently from us. You may remember seeing the picture all over the Web of a tiny child, maybe 10+ months old? dressed in a tiny suicide bomber outfit.
You may also have seen the video of 3-year-old girls (in head scarfs!!!) repeating what they had been taught: That it is Good to be a Shahid "martyr".
Conditioning is a powerful, and a scary thing.
So these folks are not "dumb". They know exactly what they are doing. Some out of hopelessness about jobs, marriage, future. Some out of indoctrination.
We in the U.S. have terrible people who are also in despair about life and turn on others -- rape, murder, arson, torture, etc. And they supposedly had the advantage of growing up in a (sort of) free society.
What can you expect from young men who grew up in a theocratic dictatorship where free speech doesn't exist, and the mullahs' version of morality is the rule? (While the top dogs drink, f**k, violate every canon of Islam...)
HB
It does seem counter-intuitive, since we think that most humans hang on to life as long as possible. It's very hard to put one's head in a place that believes "martyrdom" is a Good Thing.
Of course, when those powers are applied OUTSIDE US TERRITORY, one should not be surprised if the government or local population take exception to such a determination. And not being subject to US law, if they choose to to take forceful exception to one of their residents being snatched or killed, well, under their laws of their country, US is in the wrong.
Trying to cloth the exercise of raw naked power under a veneer of law and civilization is pointless. About the only category of scum that the international community has agreed is fair game is pirates on the open sea. They can pretty much be killed with impunity, since they are a PITA to all seafaring nations.
Standard disclaimer- not advocating that any country should roll over and allow anyone to mount attacks on their population. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. But the rule of law has nothing to do with it- it is the rule of the jungle, and should only be resorted to when absolutely necessary.
A - We did not kill the 3 detainees who were waterboarded
B - The detainees were terrorists, not domestic political dissidents that were opponents of Bush
C - We are fighting a worldwide war against terrorists that have shown time and time again that they seek to kill us all through any and all possible means.
I say as soon as you become identified as someone who shows up one fine day in alt.home.repair and starts one off topic thread after another, you;ve lost all credibility. The content of those constant off topic posts you start then qualifies you as an obvious liberal loon.
And also have no interest in even the most basic facts, otherwise you wouldn't be here demanding to know how we know waterboarding was used on just
3 detainees. It does show who is better informed.
From the LA Times, certainly no conservative think tank or appologist for Bush:
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CIA chief confirms use of waterboarding THE NATION He cites the three past cases in arguing for coercion as an option. February 06, 2008|Greg Miller | Times Staff WriterCIA Director Michael V. Hayden said publicly for the first time Tuesday that his agency had used the harsh interrogation technique known as waterboarding on three Al Qaeda suspects, and he testified that depriving the agency of coercive methods would "increase the danger to America."
In the most detailed public comments on a CIA program that had been shrouded in secrecy for years, Hayden said the agency had used simulated drowning to extract crucial information from terrorism suspects in 2002 and 2003.
I've also seen Rumsfeld state the exact same thing in an interview.
So, now being caught ignorant of the facts, you're off to "everyone is a liar." Then like Heybub said, the number of detainees waterboarded could just as well be zero, so let's use that.
=A0>The craft of "soft"
We were not after information for legal use. We were after information to save lives in the war against terror, another basic fact you can't grasp. An example of how that works is Bin Laden is gone, without the need of a trial.
Again, you need to spend more time watching and reading the news instead of just floundering around. It's been widely reported by almost every major news organization that the key tip to unraveling where Bin Laden's location was provided by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of 911, after enhanced interrogation was used on him. Sources told reporters that only after use of those techniques did he start giving forth info and by the end, he was essentially running graduate level classes in Al-Qaea operations. One of the things he gave up was the name of one of Bin Laden't couriers. That courier was then identified, located and tracked back to Bin LAden's compound.
The unfortunate thing is that while Obama had the benefit of the intelligence gained through enhanced interrogation, he has chosen to stop it. That mean the next president, arriving in 19 months, won't have that to help keep us safe. Of course, there is the possibility that Obama will reverse himself on enhanced interrogation too, just like he did on closing Gitmo, civilian trial in NYC for Khalid Sheik Mohammed, quickly ending the wars, not starting new ones, etc.
No, just annoyed at lib loons like you who don't have the most basic info and go around acting like you're so smart and superior to the rest of us. You remind me of Whoopi Goldberg, constantly making a total ass of herself on national TV while ignorant of the most basic information.
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