OT Wisconsin public workers

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I'm beyond shocked at the IGNORANCE of those posting hate mail here which seems to APPROVE Governor Mubarak -- oops, Walker -- in his attempt to revoke the right to collective bargaining for public employees. On a radio program just now I heard that among the thousands (40,000 last count) in the square some are holding up signs in ARABIC which they somehow got translated, and other signs in English thanking the Egyptians for showing the way. Thousands of students from high schools and universities walk in orderly groups miles to the scene of the demonstration. The Longshoreman's Union is encouraging its members to turn out in solidarity. Of course the sheeple media is not fairly covering these stories; you have to get the info on-line or from alternate media.
If our NG yahoos had a CLUE about the history of the labor movement in the U.S., they would be ashamed to approve this union-busting governor's attempt to turn back the clock. People DIED for the right to bargain collectively and for the right to strike!! AT LONG LAST, HAVE YOU NO DECENCY? (Anybody remember when that immortal phrase was uttered?)
Go and read the history of the labor movement in this country. Then come back and say you approve of union-busting.
HB
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On Sat, 19 Feb 2011 17:23:22 -0800 (PST), Higgs Boson

I wonder what will happen when the Egyptians figure out they can't vote themselves a job?
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On Sat, 19 Feb 2011 21:16:28 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Very nice! ;-)
I bet they'll offer some concessions. Perhaps as much as $100M.
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wrote:

None of that addresses my comment. There is an economic component to this uprising and that problem will probably get worse. If they recovered every cent of Mubarak's supposed $14B, it would be less than $180 per Egyptian.
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?

I'm well aware of the early union movement and I heartily approve of what they did. If it was 1930, I'd be a part of it organizing my co-workers. Sadly, many of the unions just kept going and have become greedy and exploit the worker. I've worked in shops with unions and have been at the negotiating table. I've seen where the money goes in some unions. I've seen them stick up for workers that truly deserved to be fired.
Unions fought for and got us many benefits we enjoy today. They helped make safer work places, the 40 hour work week, holidays, and more. They also got wages in some places higher than the what the skills are worth, they encourage featherbedding and put a lot of unnecessary rules into effect. I know many companies that will not exhibit in a trade show held in New York just because of the union extortion.
Unless the pendulum gets back to center, unions will have tough times ahead. Screw the dues, I want that money in my pocket, now some union boss.
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AMEN! I was a union president who led a long fight for recognition of workers problems with an uncaring management. It was a just and hard fought battle. But once the major issues were won, the problem became how to keep union employees stirred up enough to keep paying dues. The union's answer was always promise more pay and more benefits. It didn't matter that pay and benefits were already comparable to private sector's benefits. It didn't matter if a lazy or inept union member needed to be fired. It only mattered that union membership numbers equaled more dues dollars for the union bosses. The union became more of a problem than the management style that brought the union into being. That's the reason unions are declining nationwide today.
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On 2/20/2011 10:28 PM, Bob S. wrote:

I can see how they can become self-serving problems once an issue was resolved.
btw, I never really thought it made sense to have unions in govt. workplace. They have civil service rules to deal with at least most issues at the govt. level. Could have had elected labor obudsman to deal with labor issues, wouldn't have to pay any dues.
--
<---=-Dilbert Firestorm-=--->
Zizzle that Fire - it's Zizzle Time !!!!!!!
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BINGO! The original idea of unions to give the workers an equal footing with the other two interests in every corporation was a great idea. Ownership, management, and labor must realize that they are partners in making any corporation a success. When any one part of the partnership decides to try and take advantage of their position to the detrement of the other partners, the end can be predicted. The problem with unions as you described was their movement from worker advocated to continous advisary. They couldn't be satisfied with the fact that they were getting their share of the golden eggs, they wanted to eat the goose too.
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harry wrote:

Only if everyone also shares in the risks which is not usually the case. Co-operatives are fine when organized an equal partnership where each party puts at risk equal to what they expect to receive in profits. That has never been the case with unions and as we are seeing with the GM Unions, they don't really want that either.
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Its never been the case with any unions either. They have instead insisted on maintaining a we vs them attitude with everyone else.
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Some do and I haven't claimed otherwise but unions have never done anything but.
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Answer: It was during the Army-McCarthy hearings in 1954.
Wikipedia:
On June 9, 1954, the 30th day of the Army-McCarthy Hearings, McCarthy accused Fred Fisher, one of the junior attorneys at Welch's law firm, of associating while in law school with the National Lawyers Guild (NLG), a group which J. Edgar Hoover sought to have the U.S. Attorney General designate as a Communist front organization. Welch dismissed Fisher's association with the NLG as a youthful indiscretion and attacked McCarthy for naming the young man before a nationwide television audience without prior warning or previous agreement to do so:[citation needed]
Until this moment, Senator, I think I have never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness. Fred Fisher is a young man who went to the Harvard Law School and came into my firm and is starting what looks to be a brilliant career with us. Little did I dream you could be so reckless and so cruel as to do an injury to that lad. It is true that he will continue to be with Hale and Dorr. It is, I regret to say, equally true that I fear he shall always bear a scar needlessly inflicted by you. If it were in my power to forgive you for your reckless cruelty I would do so. I like to think that I am a gentle man but your forgiveness will have to come from someone other than me.
When McCarthy tried to renew his attack, Welch interrupted him:
Senator, may we not drop this? We know he belonged to the Lawyers Guild. Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator. You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? ******At long last, have you left no sense of decency?******
(Full Wikipedia article is worth reading, or any other objective account of those dramatic hearings, which marked the beginning of the end of the infamous McCarthy period in our history. To quote Santayana: Those who do not study history are doomed to relive it.") \HB

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Higgs Boson wrote:

You make a good point.
But the history of the labor movement is just that - history. Virtually all of the things the early labor movement agitated for are now law: Minimum wage, workplace safety, workmen's compensation, hours of work, training. There are giant bureaucracies devoted to the demands of early unions; groups like the Department of Labor, OSHA, and the like. All that's on the one hand.
On the other, is whether collective bargaining, or even unions, should even be allowed for government workers.
The city, county, state, or federal government are not "robber barons," they are not devoted to "oppressing" workers with Draconian working conditions or paying merely a pittance.
So, to answer your question on whether governments should be involved in "union busting," my answer is: definitely yes.
--

Consider a thought experiment. Suppose Governor Walker called out the
National Guard - to teach!
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On 2/20/2011 8:24 AM, HeyBub wrote:

Nice daydream, but you may recall that pretty much all the NG units are overcommitted already, with multiple tours in the sandbox, or backfilling regular units that are over there.
--
aem sends...

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harry wrote:

Because many are older than your typical military enlistee and have careers outside the military. In these careers, they've studied and mastered their disciplines.
If you doubt a civil engineer couldn't teach geometry off the top of his head, you have no concept of the outside world. Virtually anybody with an advanced degree in the humanities could easily teach history, civics, geography, and so on. Maybe not someone who majored in alto bassoon...
I taught Physics and Chemistry to 11th and 12th graders for two semesters. We had seven math teachers in my school and I believe I had more college math courses that all of them combined!
Several years ago, I did a little research. The following (at that time) were not qualified, by law, to teach in the public schools of my state:
* All living Nobel Prize winners. * All winners of the Fields Medal * All winners of literary prizes (Pulitzer, Edgar, Caldecott, Booker, etc.) * All members of my state's appellate court system * All members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and all service chiefs (Army Chief of Staff, Chief of Naval Operations, Commandant of the Marine Corps)
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On 2/20/2011 8:43 PM, HeyBub wrote:

I wonder if Special Forces may be more suitable as teachers. I don't know if there are reserve or NG Special Forces units or not but my brother was on reserve status for a while after coming home from Nam. He and the other Green Berets he served with did more teaching than fighting. If they showed up to teach fully armed, perhaps the kiddies would behave themselves especially after a few warning shots. :-)
TDD
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On 2/20/2011 10:35 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote: (snip)

Uh, that was sorta their charter, when JFK set them up. Of course, the skill sets they were teaching were not exactly the skill sets I'd really want high school kids to have. IIRC, there were a lotta years when they answered to Langley as much as they answered to the Pentagon....
I'll throw into this wildly OT and drifting discussion- in this state, and I think in several others, the Guard is host/sponsor/participant in several 'diversion' education programs for at-risk kids. 'Challenge academies', I think they call them. Boot Camp Lite, Scared Straight lectures, one-on-one counseling from Guard members that made it out of the 'hood, public service projects, a little public recognition for the kids that make it through the program, and I'm sure a little back-door recruiting for when they get a couple years older. Some of the Guard folk really throw their hearts into it, and pitch the legislature to keep the funding up, because for a lot of the kids, it seems to really help. Personally, I would have been over the wall the first night, but for a kid that only received negative feedback all their life, I can see how it would be appealing.
--
aem sends...


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The problem is that having a teaching degree doesn't make them teachers either.

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On Feb 21, 7:28pm, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

Very very true!
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harry wrote:

There are about 10,000 members of the Wisconsin National Guard (7,700 Army & 2,300 Air). Assuming one officer or warrant officer per 25 members, that's about 400 officers in the combined Guard units. The national average for officer educational attainment is 98%. Further assuming that holds true for the NG, there are at least 390 members of the Wisconsin National Guard that have college degrees.
There are a bit under 60,000 teachers in Wisconsin, so putting in the officers from the National Guard won't make much of a dent. Heck, putting in the ENTIRE National Guard woudn't cover even 20% of the requirement.
But it only takes a few. On TV. To make the point.
And a couple of ads for teachers in the Detroit and Chicago papers...
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