OT Windows 10

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On 2/22/2016 2:44 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

How can you forget that key part of the Windows triad:
Windows Windows Windows CE ME NT
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On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:53:15 -0700, Don Y

NT actually worked!!!
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On 02/22/2016 04:53 PM, Don Y wrote:
[snip]

HELP! It crashed, and it won't boot up.
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[snip]

For the most part, yes. It was disappointing if you were expecting a big improvement over 98.
One important little thing: it contained a driver for USB storage devices. Yes, the driver could be downloaded for 98, but it is convenient to not have to download it (and remember to download it).
ME also came on a bootable CD.
It was still the last of the DOS-based Windows versions.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/
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wrote:

Came with 98 SE if I remember correctly.
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On 02/23/2016 06:33 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:
[snip]

My 98SE CD is not bootable. 98SE could be the one where only some of the CDs were bootable.
BTW, even though the ME CD is bootable, it still requires a DOS boot to partition the disk (with at least one FAT partition). Partitioning was later added to the Windows boot disk.
Win ME still added that device driver (USB storage).
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/
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On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:14:10 -0700, Don Y

The secret is NOBODY gets a "free" computer. Make them put some effort into getting one.- even if it's a dollar and acheiving a scholastic goal, or X hours of "community service". Something they can afford - but something that equates to some effort/sacrifice on their part. Then things get taken care of.
Something that has no cost has no value to many people.

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On 2/20/2016 2:13 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

The "cost" is continued attendance and good performance at school. They are graded monthly -- far more frequently than "regular students". And, in addition to grades, they have to evoke recommendations from EACH of their teachers. Piss off one and you risk being expelled from the program.
(which also provides food and housing assistance)
Granted, folks are usually hard pressed to relate the two in their minds -- humans are notoriously ineffective at coupling even trivially disjointed causes and effects.
The cost *I* chose to impose (to protect my time/effort) was the risk of losing all of "their files" when/if they screwed up the machine (by unsafe practices, etc.). I.e., I'll give you a way to "fix" your machine -- but it will COST you those things that *you* apparently valued (valued enough to download, install, etc).
Of course, the agency could adopt a different policy. But, as I'm not an employee, I wouldn't be obligated to *implement* it!
(and, my reasoning is reasonably convincing -- not "arbitrary". After all, these kids will eventually have to deal with The Real World; there are few Mulligans, there!)
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On 2/20/2016 3:13 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Exactly!
--
Maggie

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|I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm | unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to | dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone | to their latest). | You can get Win7, but it's not cheap. I've bought from this company in the past and had no problems:
buycheapsoftware.com
You can even still buy XP. (I built myself a new XP box recently. You just have to be careful about making sure the hardware has drivers available.)
| W10 allegedly is rife with spyware ("data collection" | that MS no doubt uses to sell *you* to THEIR customers; | you are no longer a customer but, rather, a commodity). | | Does anyone have first-hand experience with how pervasive | this is? And, if there are *reliable* ways to disable it? |
Not firsthand. I haven't used Win10. But I do keep track of news. Basically, you can't block it all. Microsoft now considers you to be renting services on their device. They simply will not respect or even acknowledge common notions of privacy and customer respect. They even have privacy terms and TOS now, which is, itself, rather creepy for an operationg system:
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement/default.aspx
http://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/servicesagreement/default.aspx
Actually, what they're doing is defining their product as services and devices. The terms apply to all services, with Windows being one of them. For what it's worth, here are a few more links:
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-told-not-to-windows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/
http://www.infoworld.com/article/3020152/microsoft-windows/microsoft-walks-a-thin-line-between-windows-10-telemetry-and-snooping.html
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/windows-10s-privacy-policy-is-the-new-normal/
Microsoft reserves the right to update Win10 at their discretion, which means that even if you decide you don't mind what Win10 is now, it may not be that in a few months. Ads and spying are likely to increase over time, as they gradually acclimate the customer base to the new business model. (That's the freebie strategy. Facebook is a good example. As is Twitter. They start out free and then gradually become more exploitive as people get hooked. The kicker here, though, is that Win10 is not even free! The Win7/8 Win7/8 update is free.)
| Finally, how much risk these students will later be at | (for it to reintroduce itself to their machines) as they | accept future updates.
The latest news is that the following Registry setting works, but it's a shifting landscape. The only safely stable approach is to disable Windows Update. MS wants to convert everyone to Win10 services. They're not likely to give up.
HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUpdate DWORD value: DisableOSUpgrade = 1
| [I prefer to lock-down these sorts of machines so the | student doesn't come looking for "support" (from me) | later when an update mucks something up...] | | [[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that | would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]
You could install Linux, then give them Libre Office and Firefox. The problem there, though, is that they won't be able to do much else with it. And Linux support is terrible because there's constant version churn.
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On 02/20/2016 10:55 AM, Mayayana wrote:

Once I had the Linux machines setup, I did not bother with updates or new versions. Everything was fine.
The only time I worked on a machine was when there was a hardware failure, and at that time I would possibly decide to upgrade the OS
Some of the machines ran for years with no maintenance and when I did finally have to work on one I had little more to do than simply delete Windows malware downloaded to the desktop
That said: I did also have to maintain the "production" computers that ran Windows. Since the organization qualified, I passed the test required to become a "Microsoft Authorized Refurbisher" and they were able to get licenses very low cost
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I've had a lot of old windows machines run for over a decade without any maintenance too. The secret is to either keep themoff the internet or severely limit internet access.
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On 2/20/2016 11:02 AM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Exactly. That's the approach I take with my machines. When you look through the various "updates", almost all are security related. There are obvious bugs that have persisted in XP that have never been addressed -- hard to believe when you see updates that, combined, are BIGGER than the OS!
For shared machines (and the "safe" laptops that I have here) I configure the system to discard any changes made to it at each reboot. So, one person can't muck with settings that will affect (shared) "User" next time. This also makes it harder for malware to take hold (if you regularly reboot/restore).
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On 02/20/2016 12:02 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Sure, but the machines I setup were used almost exclusively for Internet and the only problems were when hardware would fail.
The machines were rather old.
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| > You could install Linux, then give them Libre | > Office and Firefox. The problem there, though, | > is that they won't be able to do much else with | > it. And Linux support is terrible because there's | > constant version churn. | > | Once I had the Linux machines setup, I did not bother with updates or | new versions. Everything was fine. |
I guess it depends on what one does with it. I could imagine a scenario where I want to install new software or updates down the road. Since Linux is always a work in progress, no one cares about backward compatibility. So one updates program XYZ from v. 1.24.213 to v. 1.24.414 and it needs a dozen libraries replaced, because, for instance, libABC v. 2.463.654.22 is no longer good enough. The new program version was compiled with a dependency on libABC v. 2.463.654.24. At some point those kinds of dependencies will conflict with the Linux version.
It can be made easier by just allowing the software to go out and update itself, but then one ends up back in the same boat as with Windows: The whole idea of switching is to protect privacy and control of the system, yet now Linux wants to be allowed to go online and update things willy nilly.
I don't see any reason why I should enable anything through the firewall that I didn't initiate. The software is supposed to be doing what I tell it to do.... Which brings up another issue: Last I checked, there was no firewall available for Linux that provided outgoing block by process. The excuse offered by Linux fans was that Linux isn't creepy like Windows so you don't need outgoing block! Even if that were true, blocking outgoing is a good way to help avoid malware. And I see no reason to just trust not only the Linux distribution but also every other process that runs on a Linux box. Trustworthy means it doesn't ask or try to go online.
Backward compatibility has always been one of the best aspects of Windows. Software can easily be written today that runs on Win95 to Win10. It's even easier to write software that runs on Win2000 to Win10. Microsoft almost never breaks any documented API function, so if it worked on Win95 it can be depended on to work on Win10.
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On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:55:40 -0500, "Mayayana"

You CAN turn off virtually all the spyware by doing a custom install (during upgrade) and answering NO to everything - and you CAN dissable the automatic upgrades/updates which will also prevent the darn thing from rebooting on it's own whenever it wants to.
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On Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 1:01:34 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

My understanding was that with Win 10 there is no direct way to simply stop automatic updates like you can with previous versions of Windows. I have seen some people suggesting that you can do it by declaring whatever connection you have to the internet to be "metered", so the update agent won't do updates while using that link. That appears to be what I'd call a workaround, for now, at least.
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| You CAN turn off virtually all the spyware by doing a custom install | (during upgrade) and answering NO to everything
No, you can't. Read my links. It's intrusive by design. People would like to think they can fix it because that would make life a lot easier, but it's just not the case.
When you finish reading those links, here's another one that's even more surprising, from just a couple of weeks ago.
https://voat.co/v/technology/comments/835741
Note the line:
"I have chosen the customized installation option where I disabled three pages of tracking options."
Over 5,000 calls out in 8 hours! There's been some criticism that that may be a high number because the author blocked the attempts to go out, so some may have been multiples. Even so, it tried to call out to numerous IPs after all available privacy options had been selected.
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On 2/20/2016 11:37 AM, Mayayana wrote:

As I said elsewhere, MS is controlling EVERYTHING in the box. They can do anything they want and you are powerless to prevent it or interfere with it -- if they so choose.
The "obvious" solution is an EXTERNAL firewall between the machine and the 'net -- something that MS *can't* control.
But, it's relatively easy to tunnel through most firewalls; especially for (relatively) low bandwidth connections. E.g., send a DNS request to resolve databeingpassed.microsoft.com and the registered name server for microsoft.com will *see* an incoming request to resolve "databeingpassed" *from* your IP. MS decides to resolve this as 127.127.127.127 (knowing that *it* will be the entity "seeing" this information) and then interpreting it as "User not registered. Shut down system".
Of course, they can simply refuse to RUN unless they manage to get a phone call off to "home"! (So, you'd have to be able to have some other device that masquerades as MS -- no doubt using an encrypted technology -- to trick the OS into thinking that the call succeeded.)
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On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 13:37:38 -0500, "Mayayana"

What utility did he use to determine there were 5000 "callouts" in 8 hours? What (not spamware laded) utility can I run to see what is happening on mine???
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