OT: While we're at it, how about his police shooting?

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Thane wrote:

audio, but I know that neighborhood, and a policeman was shot and killed a few years ago, so I think that when you are told that someone is acting around with a gun (the police weren't told it was a replica, and from the pictures, it looks real) they approach thinking it is a dangerous situation, both for them and the other people in the park. So when they approached and the boy pulled out his gun, I think almost anyone would have shot him. What bothers me is no one is asking how the child got the gun and why he was in the park in the dark. Perhaps they are looking into that and it just hasn't made the news. It strikes me that anyone who would give a young child a replica weapon, and let him run around the park with it, should be considered the one who caused this death.
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On 11/29/2014 5:30 PM, No name wrote:

When I was 12, I has a .22 starter pistol. My parents never knew I had it and it was legal. I was smart enough not to point it at police though.
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On 11/29/14, 10:52 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Local people seem to have a good handle on it. He didn't realize that in his hat and coat, he looked older. He wasn't trying to scare anyone. He was a lonely kid playing at the park. At his age, he thought everybody could see he was just a kid playing with a simulated firearm.
The police car arrived very suddenly. The passenger cop said he shouted three times, "Show me your hands!" as the boy moved toward him, raising his jacket and drawing his gun.
It seems outlandish that he would try to scare the cops. The explanation is simple. He wasn't trained for the startling confrontation. He couldn't imagine that the cop saw him as a threat. He interpreted the cop's demand as, "Show me your gun!"
Now I lean toward Thane. If there had been a procedure that gave the cops and the kid more time to comprehend the situation, the ending would have been happy. I'm sure they teach it at the Andy Griffith Police Academy!
Police killed a young black man at a Walmart near Dayton in August. He'd gone there to play video games. Instead, he strolled around talking to his girlfriend on his cell phone. He absent-mindedly picked up a pellet gun that had been unpackaged and left on a shelf. I think that was Walmart marketing: kids who saw how much it looked like an assault rifle, would buy one on impulse.
As he walked and talked, sometimes the rifle was pointed at the floor, sometimes at the ceiling, and sometimes at a shelf. The aisles were pretty deserted. He didn't notice people who passed, and they hardly noticed him. They may have thought it was a loaded firearm. In Ohio, it's legal to carry firearms without a permit as long as they aren't concealed and you don't point at anyone.
One customer called police and falsely claimed he was pointing the gun at customers. On the phone, the victim's girlfriend heard him say, "It's not real!" just before he was shot dead. Those police shots caused a nearby woman to drop dead with a heart attack.
Walmart had 200 security cameras showing everything that happened. The investigating authorities confiscated the videos and instead filmed a reenactment the next morning. Out with the documentation, in with the fiction! They said the victim had done nothing wrong, but neither had police. Before the grand jury, the prosecutor acted instead as if he were the defense attorney for the police. There was no indictment.
Eventually, the authorities released video from one security camera. It showed that the victim hadn't pointed at anyone and was only vaguely aware of the pellet gun in his hand as he talked on the phone. Apparently police with rifles were on all sides, using shelves for cover, but the video shows only the shopper, minding his own business and suddenly shot. The sequence is sped up. Frames were probably removed.
Two months earlier, local police had completed a course in shooting gunmen. The cop yelled to drop the gun. The startled shopper's immediate reaction was that it was wrong to damage store merchandise by dropping it. He immediately said it wasn't real and was executed for failing to follow police training.
The idiocy higher up was worse. When police got the call, the commander should have called store security immediately, to prevent shoppers from going near the accused and to evaluate him with their 200 cameras. They could have saved the police death squad a trip. The sole customer who called police told the press he was an ex-Marine. Right. He'd been dishonorably discharged in boot camp.
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On Sunday, November 30, 2014 3:05:58 AM UTC-5, J Burns wrote:

Did you watch the video? Early in the video the kid points the gun directly at someone walking by on the street, from only a few feet away.

Now you know he was lonely? Good grief, what are you going to make up next?
At his age, he thought

It wasn't just a "simulated" firearm. It was an airgun that could easily put an eye out.

Police have a habit of doing that, especially when responding to a report of a crime.
The passenger cop said he shouted

It seems outlandish that a 12 year old kid would be out in public with an air pistol, pointing it at people too. But you have it in the video and also stated in the 911 call.
The

It's one possible explanation, but you have no way of knowing what the kid was thinking.

One major factor that reduced the time and distance was the kid clearly got up from the table and headed *toward* the police car as it approached.

They sell pellet guns to minors in OH?

How does one ascertain from a video that the guy was only "vaguely" aware of a pellet rifle that he was holding?

I found the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9FtNOV6Qhk

From what I can see there, it's hard to tell exactly what happened. Do you have a better video? And what evidence do you have that frames were removed, other than the time periods that are not shown, where the subject is off camera?

Somehow I think that's your conclusion. Is that what the cops testified to?

What do you expect? The media is focused on the nuts that shoot people in theaters, in schools, at workplaces, etc. They are still rare, but they cover enough of them that people are worried. I bet if you surveyed Walmart shoppers, most of them probably don't even know they sell guns. They see someone walking around with one in Walmart, they call 911. Factor in that now we have incidents where terrorist wannabees walk up to cops and kill them without warning, and you have a deadly mix. In this particular case, the police may have overreacted, but just from the video, I can't tell because what happened in the final couple of seconds isn't clear.
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On 11/30/2014 6:42 AM, trader_4 wrote:

We'll never know the intent. At 12, it could have been just a moving target in his fantasy game A cat or chipmunk would have been treated the same as he was fantasying saving the world from aliens.
Or, he may have wanted to scare the crap out of people.
Police can scare and confuse people too. They are trained to take charge and yell commands, such as "hands in the air". or "get down on the ground" I can imagine myself getting hurt by police if I was told to get on the ground because that is not so easy for me these days due to knee issues.
I just hope the investigation is able to clear up some of what really happened.
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On 11/30/2014 9:49 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Smile, palms forward, fingers spaced out.
"Bad knees, sorry, officer." Smile again.
--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
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On 11/30/14, 9:49 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I think the "good handle" came from people who knew the kid. I guess he had a good reputation. They figured the only reason he would have reached for his gun was that he thought he was being cooperative.
Around that age, my favorite toy was a Hubley "replica" of a Colt 38 automatic. I loved it because it was heavy and pretty realistic for a toy, and it fired reliably. When a kid goes to shoot somebody 8 times fast, the last thing he needs is a gun that won't feed and fire roll caps reliably.
I was always pulling it out of my waistband or coat pocket and shooting friends. They weren't scared because they knew me. I didn't shoot adults or strangers. It never occurred to me that they'd be scared, but it seemed rude. Perhaps if at an early age, I'd known adults who thought my pointing a toy gun at them was cute, I might not have considered it rude to point at strangers when I was 12.
I used to walk around town with my Daisy Model 25 pump gun. It wasn't a pump-up gun. The pump action was just a quicker way than a lever to compress the spring. If I pulled the trigger to be sure the spring wasn't cocked, I knew it was perfectly harmless because there was no energy to propel a BB. Still, I never pointed at anyone because it would have been rude, due to the possibility in their mind that I might accidentally put a BB in their eye.

I've never been asked to do a field sobriety test, but I've always had misgivings. I believe the company that developed it, warned police that 25% of people who had had no intoxicant, would fail. Depending on what shoes I was wearing, I'd probably look like the town drunk if ordered to stand on one foot.
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On 11/30/14, 6:42 AM, trader_4 wrote:

I'd include "kids" who aren't minors, but the state doesn't seem to have restrictions. In Akron, it's 18. If police learned that a father was showing a minor how to shoot a BB gun in their basement, they could be arrested.
When an Iraq War veteran moved into Ashtabula City from outside the limits, police came into his yard and confiscated his air gun.
In Cleveland, nobody may carry a BB gun in a public place, or have it readily available. The kid shot in Cleveland was violating the law, but at his age he may not have known it.

but not the critical seconds.
He hardly looks at the gun when he picks it up. He doesn't look at it again. As he listens on and no to the cell phone, he pays no attention to other shoppers, the merchandise on the shelves, or the gun in his hand, with the muzzle usually hanging by his ankle. Who wouldn't pity him? He came to play video games, but the girl won't get off the phone. He holds the gun as I'd hold an umbrella during a long, boring phone call.
The shooting took place in a corner of the grocery section. We're looking down the last aisle, with the wall on the right. There's a cross aisle at the end, and then another wall. He's about 5 feet from the other end of our aisle, facing the shelves on the left. His left shoulder is toward us. He talks on a phone in his left hand. The rifle hangs in his right hand. Like a pendulum, the muzzle swings a few inches fore and aft.
He bends forward and places the rifle on the floor in the middle of the aisle, complying without ever putting himself in a position where, if it were a firearm, he could shoot.
Before standing up, he dives to the floor and exits around the end of the shelves in a low crawl, his belly on the floor. His girlfriend said she heard him say, "It isn't real," then there was a shot, then he was crying. I think the shot missed. I think he was crying in terror because he was at the mercy of a cop who seemed intent on murdering him.
A cop with a rifle walks down the aisle from our direction, his back to us. Apparently he'd fired the shot. He's halfway down the aisle when the victim leaps up and sprints back around the end of the row toward him. The victim doubles back, and the cop apparently shoots him in the back.
Having dived to the floor in terror, I don't know why the victim would have jumped up unless a second cop had fired at him. He was on his belly on a light-colored floor in good light. No rifle was near him.
It appears that the victim was killed because of a sequence of at least three police shots, none of which could be justified. If I read that the feds have put the whole department in Leavenworth for life without parole, I won't think it wrong.
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On Sunday, November 30, 2014 9:57:04 PM UTC-5, J Burns wrote:

I'd very much like to see a reference to that law. I say it's baloney. In Ohio, like most states, minors can even go hunting, so I seriously doubt it's illegal for a father to show a minor how to shoot a BB gun in their basement. Provide us with the law please.

If he was shooting it in the yard, I can see how they could have a law against that. The devil is in the details. Link please.

I doubt the law says you can't have it "readily available". If so, might as well make them all illegal. Sitting in a corner in a person's house is "readily available".

Sure, that happens to me all the time. I go into a store, get distracted on a cell phone call, and wind up picking up a riflle and walking around the store with it for 10 mins.

I couldn't see any of that level of detail. Nor have I heard that version in the media. You're saying he laid the gun down, complying with the cops and after that, they shot, missed, then continued to shoot and gunned him in down in cold blood. I don't see even the family or the usual rabble rousing race baiters saying anything like that.

Again, from the limited view of what I can see on that video, none of the above is supported.

Again, IDK where in that sequence he was shot. It's possible he was shot while *holding* the gun. I can't see how the gun wound up on the floor.

Sure, jump to conclusions, based on what you think you see in a grainy, poor, surveilance video. I can't see even one shot being fired. And heh, if something was done wrong, let's not convict just the cop, assuming it was even criminal, let's convict the whole police dept and put them all in jail.
You as sure about all that as you are that it's illegal to show a minor how to use a BB gun in your basement?
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On 12/1/14, 4:06 AM, trader_4 wrote:

air gun or ammunition for an air gun. The parent or guardian of any person under age 18 is prohibited from knowingly permitting the person under age 18 from using or possessing an air gun or air gun ammunition. Akron (§ 137.13) also generally prohibits any person or other entity from selling, offering for sale, giving away, distributing, or furnishing an air gun or air gun ammunition to any person under age 18.

Cleveland (§ 627.10(a)) prohibits any person from carrying or having in his or her possession or ready at hand any BB or pellet gun while at or about a public place.

it down.
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On Monday, December 1, 2014 4:40:25 AM UTC-5, J Burns wrote:

Ok, so now instead of listening to what some folks tell you the law says, lets look at the actual law on the books:
137.11 - Use and possession of airguns and ammunition by minors.
A.
For the purpose of this section the following definitions shall apply unles s the context clearly indicates or requires a different meaning.
"Airgun." Any air pistol, air rifle, BB gun, pump gun, pellet gun, CO-2 gun , or similar instrument or device capable of discharging ammunition by mean s of air pressure or spring action.
"Ammunition." Any leaden or metallic projectile, any pellet, or any other s ubstance capable of inflicting injuries to persons or property when used in an airgun.
B.
It shall be unlawful for any person under the age of eighteen to use or hav e in his possession any airgun or ammunition.
C.
The provisions of this section do not prohibit or render it unlawful to use or possess any airgun or ammunition for purposes of instruction in firearm safety, care, handling, or marksmanship under the supervision or control o f a responsible adult.
D.
It shall be unlawful for the parent or guardian of any such person under th e age of eighteen in his charge or custody to knowingly permit any such per son under the age of eighteen to use or have in his possession any airgun o r ammunition unless such use or possession falls within the exception of su bsection C of this section.
E.
Whoever violates this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor in the third degree.
Section C clearly says you're full of baloney, just as I suspected.

You said the law prohibited one from having a BB gun readily available. A gun in the corner of my room, is readily available. A gun in a public place is different, never disputed that.

No, I'm saying you're just making up crap, pulling it out of thin air. I'm saying your statement that he was just distracted on the phone and didn't know he was carrying a rifle around a Walmart makes no sense. Are you a liberal?

Obviously you just make stuff up:
You claimed there are missing frames, the video has been doctored, etc. Then later:
"I downloaded it in HQ. I was mistaken. Some of it was sped up 4 times, but not the critical seconds. "
So, I ask again, are you as sure about the video as you were about the Akron law on BB guns? You were full of baloney on that one:
"If police learned that a father was showing a minor how to shoot a BB gun in their basement, they could be arrested. "
You cited *part* of 137.11:
"Akron (§ 137.11) prohibits any person under age 18 from possessing any air gun or ammunition for an air gun. The parent or guardian of any person under age 18 is prohibited from knowingly permitting the person under age 18 from using or possessing an air gun or air gun ammunition. "
Except 137.11 also says:
C.
The provisions of this section do not prohibit or render it unlawful to use or possess any airgun or ammunition for purposes of instruction in firearm safety, care, handling, or marksmanship under the supervision or control o f a responsible adult.
Doh!
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On 11/29/2014 10:52 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

When I was 12, I had a couple capguns that took ring caps. I didn't like the orange tip, so I drilled it out and blacked it with magic marker.
Col Burke will be interested to know that I busted a cap on a couple cops when I was 12, and that's how I ended up in a wheelchair in a long term care facility. With a team of nurses who have to change my Depends, cause I'm paralyzed from 7th vertebrae on down. No one knows who my Dad is, Mom was doing two guys, both in prison and refuse DNA test. Mom has to take the cross town bus on first of the month when get gets benefits, to visit me. Good thing she takes the bus, she's usually so fortied up she could not start the car or drive it. I don't see my three older brothers, from two other dads, they all get out in a couple years. My younger brother is in juvie.
The rest of you ignore that last bit. Carry on.
- . Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
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wasn't there.
--
“Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.”
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On 11/29/2014 04:53 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:

/sarcasm/
...and of course a criminal would never put a red marking at the end of his real weapon to make it appear to be a toy...that would be illegal I bet.
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On Saturday, November 29, 2014 2:27:20 PM UTC-8, philo  wrote:

Real case, as hard as it is to believe.
I was a county dispatcher way back when in a very rural county. Had a rash of armed robberies at the 'stop-n-robs' (gas station convenience stores). One of he clerks said he was threatened with a yellow gun. Deputies "Yeah, riiiight..." About a week later a town cop stopped a vehicle just outside of town. Asked to search vehicle - permission granted. Open trunk and he is staring at a pistol painted yellow!
We never did get an explanation of why someone would do that.
I can't recall the name of the perp. Happened in Whitman County, Washington state back in the 80s.
Harry K
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On 11/30/2014 10:00 AM, Harry K wrote:

<snip>

Thanks to Google I looked up "yellow gun' and got a bite.
There such a thing as a martial arts yellow training gun.
It's just a prop, but it must be used for training people how to knock a gun out of someone's hand.
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wrote:

Technically, I am not sure how you could to that without screwing up the opening of the barrel. May not be that they won't do anything illegal, it is just that they don't have the engineering skills.
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On 11/29/2014 7:09 PM, Kurt Ullman wrote:

someone uses sarcasm, which was not noticed.
BTW, isn't it orange on the barrel?
- . Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
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On Saturday, November 29, 2014 7:09:12 PM UTC-5, Kurt Ullman wrote:

You could just put some orange paint or orange tape on the end of the barre l for starters. From even a short distance, if you were pulling that out of your jacket, I wouldn't expect most could tell the difference. You're left with figure it out, or possibly die.
The more I think about it, the more I think that orange tip thing is a bad idea. I wouldn't want to be a cop, have to use a gun to defend myself, because someone pulls a gun and points it at me, and then have the Monday morning quarterbacks accuse me of shooting an unarmed guy, because it turns out it was an airgun with an orange tip.
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On 11/30/2014 05:47 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Very tough job, that of being a cop
but the bottom line is that if someone pulls a gun on you,the proper thing to do is to blast them.
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