OT Which direction is your ceiling fan SUPPOSED to run?

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Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Unless you run an evaporative cooler like we do. Best invention since pivot irrigation.
One has to get used to it. I feel much more comfortable than with traditional A/C but we have to make sure to always use coasters for drinks such as beer that just came out of the fridge. Else there'll be ugly water stains developing on the table.
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Regards, Joerg

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On 7/4/2014 4:44 PM, Joerg wrote:

Swampers only work in dry climates. Living in NY State, USA, the only swamper I've seen in person was the one I helped to take apart and haul to the scrap yard.
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Christopher A. Young
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Stormin Mormon wrote:

They can also help in more humid climates, not as a direct cooler but as a pre-cool stage outside, before the A/C condenser. However, my impression is that much of the A/C industry is stuck in the times of the Flintstones when it comes to innovation.
Of course this does not work in places where the humidity hovers around 90% a lot such as Houston.
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On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 10:34:11 -0500, Tim Wescott

Any heat pump or other air conditioner WILL remove humidity from the air - warm humid air passes over cool surface, humidity condenses out. Cannot be done any other way.
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In industry it is the "cost of doing business".
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You might see a difference when the fan is first turned on, but once the air is mixed up it shouldn't change. The fan itself doesn't warm or cool the air in the room.
I have watched my thermometer (digital thermostat directly beneath the ceiling fan), and there is no change in temperature whether the fan is turned on or not. But the gentle breeze still "feels" cooler on a hot day.

I tried having my fan blow upwards, and could feel a nice breeze along the walls where the air is being pushed down. But I don't spend a lot of time up against the walls, and it's still a lot more disperse than directly under a down blowing fan.
Anthony Watson www.mountainsoftware.com www.watsondiy.com
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On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 12:08:54 -0400, clare wrote:

Water does not dribble out of it, and even when it is going the dehumidifier will remove gallons from this place in a day.
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Tim Wescott
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On 7/4/2014 12:17 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:

How do you know water doesn't come out of it? Is this a window unit? They normally drip the water on the outside. If it is a fixed unit they either run a tube outside or to a drain inside.
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Rick

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But a down-pointing fan does blow the dust off.
http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/25941229/dust-storm-hits-phoenix-flights-grounded
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John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
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On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 16:13:56 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband

Well, I can tell you from experience (very recent) it makes a difference. Big air conditioned room. 33C at the ceiling, 16C at the floor. Turned on 2 big-assed (no-not the brand name) fans and dropped the ceiling temp to 24, and raised the floor temperature to 22C within a few minutes. Did it change the amount of heat in the room? Not at all. At less than 30 watts each they did not contribute very many BTUs, but it sure changed the temperature in MOST of the room. The thermostat was set to 24C. We reset it to 26C after installing the fans. Will likely get more adjustment over the coming days.
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On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 11:17:41 -0500, Tim Wescott

Then it must have an "evaporator" like refrigerators have to "boil" the water back into the house - which sure doesn't make a lot of sense.
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You are not getting my point. The AC, if oversized, moves a lot of air over the cold colil for a short amount of time while drawing large amount of current and removing a small amount of humidity.
A smaller A/C moves less air over the cold coil for a longer period of time, and moves more air to reduce the temperature by the same amount, using less power to do so. so it removes more moisture for the same amount of current drawn. The BTU/watt efficiency may very well be the same - or the big one may even be more efficient - but the efficiency as a dehumidifier is significantly better on the smaller A/C unit.
If it is not cool enough to require air conditioning, but is too humid for comfort, running a small de-humidifier is a LOT more efficient than running the big-assed air conditioner AND the furnace!!!!
Only a total idiot would run the AC and heat at the same time to reduce the humidity in the house.
As for the de-humidifier producing heat - it only produced a fraction of it's total power consumption as heat output. The heat coming off the back of the unit is just heat removed from the air (and moisture) entering the front of the unit. The latent heat of vaporization/condensation of the water removed is the only appreciable "heat" produced. (971 BTU/lb) So for every US gallon of water removed, aproxemately 8000 BTU.
If it takes 12 hours to remove a gallon, that is 672 btu/hr or less than 200 watts.
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On 7/4/2014 2:37 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I do "get" your point, I just don't agree with it.

I don't think that follows. Most of the power in an AC unit is in the compressor which creates the cooling. Reducing the temperature of the air is going to take the same total amount of cooling, so there is no power saving in a smaller unit. They size units to keep the initial costs down and to provide enough cooling for the warmest days.

Your conclusions simply don't follow your premise. Unless there is something less effective about the condensation of water in the large unit it will end up collecting the same amount of moisture from the air. But in reality there is an effect that makes the larger unit work better. If the airflow over the coils does not cool the air below the dew point, no water condenses at all. A sufficiently small unit with an adequate air flow may well not lower the air temperature enough to extract enough water during the process.

Again, no substantiation, just a claim. Running the small dehumidifier removes small amounts of water AND warms the room requiring the AC to run. Running the large AC unit will remove the water more quickly. If it does not remove enough water heat must be added as it runs to remove enough humidity (becoming a dehumidfier). The question is which unit is more efficient as a dehumidifier and talking about "big-assed" ACs does not answer the question. You are coming up with an answer based on an emotional analysis of inadequate data.
The one fact I know is that my AC unit produces enough water to require a pump to remove it and runs repeatedly all day. A dehumidifier I have used will fill the two gallon bucket in a day or so in the worst humid days of summer in the DC area. Still not sufficient data to prove one or the other since I have never measured the output. But the AC only cycles on and off while the dehumidifier runs continuously 24/7 until the bucket is full.

You still fail to understand that is *exactly* what you are doing with the dehumidifier. It had a hot coil and a cold coil. The hot coil produces all the heat entering the cold coil plus the electrical energy coming from the outlet. So you actually warm the room with that unit requiring the AC to turn on even if it is otherwise not needed.

I'm not sure what you mean by the fraction comment. ALL electrical energy consumed by this unit ends up as heat, mostly at the hot coil.
The condensed water has had its heat removed and then put back into the air on the hot side of the unit. The question is where does that heat go? Only part of the heat at the hot coil was from cooling the air, most of it was from condensing the water. With a dehumidifier the entire latent heat of evaporation is returned to the room along with the heat from the electrical power required to make it all work. This will heat up the room. With an AC unit that heat is exhausted outside reducing your cooling costs. Don't think the latent heat of evaporation needs to be returned to the room to maintain a temperature. When water evaporates it cools. When it condenses it releases that heat and will warm the room.
I guess one difference is that we have few days when we need dehumidification but not cooling. If you actually need your space warmed with dehumidification rather than cooled, then the dehumidifier might be more efficient. But if you don't need the extra heat the AC unit will have to run to maintain a temperature.
--

Rick

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On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 06:28:33 -0700, RobertMacy

Trust, but verify is how I operate. That usually means figuring out how things work before making a judgment. I'm not sure I'm ready to accept your observations quite yet. Color me undecided.

Ok, that makes sense for AZ. However, they still specify a presumably reflective light color, not a dark black asphalt surface that would absorb heat.
The US Dept of Energy version: <http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/cool-roofs> <http://web.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/facts/CoolCalcEnergy.htm >Yes direct sunlight onto a surface is reflected or absorbed, but walls are

It's not the radiation into the night sky. It's the lack of clouds to trap the hot air between the ground and the cloud layer that makes a clear night sky rather cold.

Not quite. White is worn outside in the summer, with gray or black in the winter. While dark clothes do get hotter on the surface, they are somewhat cooler on the inside. The clothes are worn loosely where the vertical temperature differential sets up a convective vertical air flow. The inner layer traps much of the sweat against the skin, which is cooled by the convective air flow. Much of the sweat remains trapped against the skin, thus reducing overall water loss. The outer layers provide air pockets, which offer some insulation value. If the clothes are worn tightly, it doesn't work. Dark clothes also loose heat faster than light clothes and are therefore worn indoors. <http://www.traderscity.com/abcg/pic1.htm >so thought I'd give it

I do much the same thing. At night, I leave the house partly open so that it cools down. In the morning, I close all the doors and windows to trap in the cold air. At about noon, the house warms up to the same as outside temperature, so I open with windows.
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Jeff Liebermann snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
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On 7/4/2014 2:51 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I like to do the same thing when we have cool nights like tonight. More important than cooling the air in the house is cooling the house itself. Air heats and cools quickly, the materials of the house, not so much. So let the house cool as much as possible then shut the house when the temperatures start to rise. I can't remember the house ever reaching the outside temperature by noon, the equal point is usually in the evening when the outside starts to cool again.
--

Rick

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system

Water doesn't dribble out of it because there is a drain line from the air handler to the outside. It doesn't remove ALL the water vapor...how much depends upon air temperature and humidity.
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dadiOH
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Confucscious say only Muslim ceiling fan blow up.
--
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Christopher A. Young
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On Friday, July 4, 2014 2:54:16 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:

I'm with you and Cl on this one. The physics of every AC says that when you cool humid air, water condenses out. That water either has to go out a drain line, dribble out, or else get deliberately put back into the air, by reheating it somehow, like a hot pan. In the case of a residential heat pump system, it would almost certainly be a drain line.
A make and model of the heat pump would settle it or perhaps a pic.
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I didn't say they didn't have them, I said they weren't popular or commonly available. That is true. Hell, I had to buy my first ones - Hunters - from a company called "Fly Fan"...their customers were butchers and vendors in open markets that bought them to shoo away flies.
--

dadiOH
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dadiOH wrote:

I got two fans from an old guy in the 70's and at that point the fans were already really old. Judging by the (largely absent) electrical safety measures pre-WW2 but certainly consumer-grade. I ended up throwing them away because the plastic in the blades looked like an imminent failure waiting to happen. Don't remember what it was (bakelite?). With a large fan the results of a failure could be nasty. It looked cool though.
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Regards, Joerg

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