OT - When does a rental car become a stolen vehicle?

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Actually, all I need to do is pay the rental agency the AAO fees and list the drivers on the contract.
As soon as we (my family and l) decide how many drivers we'll want balanced against the cost, that's what I'm going to do. That way at least I'll know that all operators are authorized by the rental agency and covered by my insurance.
We may now let this thread die a peaceful death.
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Here's an interesting angle. What happens if you leave the keys in the ignition of a rental car at the 711 while getting a coffee. A crook steals it, causes $50k in damages to the rental car and another car they hit.. Is you insurance company on the hook for that one? I say yes.
Now, suppose you don't add any drivers when you rent the car because you think no one else will be driving the car. While you are having breakfast, junior takes the keys to the car and goes out and has the same accident. Is your insurance company on the hook for that one? I say yes.
Now if you agree that they are on the hook for this last example, then let's say you don't add junior as a listed driver, even though you know that he will drive it. It would be very difficult for the insurance company to prove you knew about it, participated in it, etc. Junior just says "Gee, I just assumed I could use it and it would be OK".
Now Evan will tell you that all hell is gonna rain down on junior, That he's committed a serious crime, the unauthorized used of a car. I say it's highly doubtful he's committed a crime. And even if it's possible under some law, there ain't a prosecutor in a thousand miles that would waste his time on this nonsense.
So, if you feel confident that the insurance company will cover you if junior uses the car without your knowing, without your approval, then you may have your practical answer.
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Well, this one's easy.

I don't.
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Well then, I'd find another insurance company. Because if they are going to not cover a claim when someone uses your car without your permission, then you're wide open to all kinds of possibilities.
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How you went from a discussion about my Ins Co saying an unlisted driver of a rental vehicle might not be covered to thinking that they won't cover someone driving *my* car is beyond me.
A rental vehicle is not *my* car. That's one of the major discussion points of this thread and why the rules differ. I don't have to get anyone's permission to let anyone drive *my* car but I do need to get the rental agency's permission to let anyone but me drive the rental.
Surely you understand that difference.
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One of the key parts of auto insurance is it protects me if someone steals my car and runs over a nun. Or if my nephew, who happens to be visiting, decides to take it out one night without my permission and runs over a nun. My policy covers a rental car if someone steals it and kills a nun. It would seem to me that it would be one hell of a hole if they did not cover me if that nephew who was traveling with me decided to take the car out while I was having breakfast, without me knowing and without being on the rental contract and kills a nun. If you follow your theory on that one, that the insurance company can walk away from it, you better list all the people traveling with you as drivers. And that will be a problem when you get to the 14 year old that doesn't have a drivers license.
That was the point.
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-

Protects you from what? Did you run over the nun? How are you liable for anything that happens after someone steals your car?
Stolen without permission from:
http://www.thegreerlawfirm.com/faqs/what-happens-if-someone-is-killed-or-seriously-injured-by-the-driver-of-a-stolen-vehicle.cfm
Q : What Happens If Someone is Killed or Seriously Injured by the Driver of a Stolen Vehicle? A: Drivers of stolen vehicles have less regard for the safety of their fellow citizens than other drivers. They often run stop signs and red lights at a high rate of speed, thereby putting other people at risk. When an accident occurs, the vehicle they were driving is not covered by an insurance policy, because the driver was driving without permission of the owner. It is unlikely the driver of the stolen vehicle has any other insurance policy available to him. Therefore, the injured parties must look to their own insurance for compensation.
See the same type of answer (actual multiple answers) here:
http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/if-my-car-was-stolen-and-involved-in-a-hit-and-run-698777.html
Note the line in the paragraph I quoted that says:
"When an accident occurs, the vehicle they were driving is not covered by an insurance policy, because the driver was driving without permission of the owner. "
This takes me back to what I have said numerous times. I do not own the rental vehicle. If I let my son operate the vehicle without them being listed, he would be driving the vehicle without the permission of the owner, therefore, not covered by my policy.

Again, covers you for what? What did *you* do?

It's not a hole, it just a fact.
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Go back to the example I first gave when I brought this up. I said suppose you stopped at the 711 for coffee, left the keys in the car, and the car is stolen. Under that scenario, you are potentially liable because your negligence contributed to what happened. Or suppose even worse, you left the car running while getting that coffee. In those cases, I can see the nun suing you and winning. Those cases are different than the car being stolen when parked locked on the street.
And it's my understanding that MY policy would cover me for that 711 example.

But from your own report, your insurance company never said those words. They gave you some cryptic answer that essentially said yes, no, maybe. You interpreted that as them "protecting" you. Protecting you from them apparently. But I would interpret that answer as the insurance company simply not wanting to get involved in getting you into OTHER potential legal trouble.
What you asked them was if it's OK to cheat the rental car company out of the additional fee they are entitled to if you have others drive the car. Would you expect any insurance company to just say "Why yes sir, it's perfectly OK with us for you to go ahead and cheat that rental company and not list those drivers?"
At the same time, the insurance company knows there are other bad things that can happen to it's policy holder, due to doing that. Legal problems like the car being pulled over for a traffic stop, driver isn't on rental contract, police can't verify who they are, and impound the vehicle. I would think that is what the insurance company is trying to protect you from.

Left the keys available to the nephew, didn't properly secure the car, knowing the nephew was a little urchant with a penchant for getting into trouble are some examples of what I could have done that would leave me open for liability.

Yes, the facts are that you can be sued and plaintiffs can win under the scenarios I gave you. And if your policy didn't cover these, it would be a potential serious hole in the policy. But I say my policy does cover me for these scenarios.
And again, if you think your policy does not, then you're open to taking the hit personally in the above scenarios. We could go on to expand this to the rental car, but unless you agree with the above scenarios, it's pointless.
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What a crock, but I guess the rental companies have to dream up something to try to force you to add additional drivers. If it's a "crime" they would have to report it to the police. If they are truthful and report the actual facts, there is no way any police dept is going to consider that a "stolen" car and pursue charges.
There must be plenty of instances of folks letting someone else drive that was not "authorized" that got into an accident. How you would find them so you could see what happens, I don't know.
My best guess is that if you are NOT relying on the car company for either liability insurance or collision insurance and you have a policy that covers your family for any cars they drive, that it's not going to matter. except in some possibly extreme cases. For example, if the driver not on the contract kills a bus load of nuns, it exceeds your policy limit, they sue the rental company and you, the rental company might be off the hook. But then I would think they are pretty much off the hook anyway, unless they committed some negligence in relation to what they did.
Now if you took out insurance with the rental company and then allowed someone not on the contract to drive, I would expect they may say the insurance does not cover that driver and loss.
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wrote:

I'll have to spend a little more time reading the rental contract, but I did find this in their FAQ:
"Additional driver not signed on contract.
What if I just allow them to drive without adding them on the contract?
Failure to add someone on the contract could result in the car being impounded if stopped by the police."
If it *could* result in being impounded, then the police would need a reason (and a law?) allowing them to impound it, wouldn't they?
As I said in my response to Oren, the Ins Co did hint at a "legal issue" with coverage of un-authorized drivers but didn't go into the details. However, the rental agent mentioned the "stolen car" status without knowing what my Ins Co had told me.
I look at it like this, at least at this point:
1 - There has to be some reason behind the Ins Co saying "the policy would cover any driver but a "legal issue" might prevent coverage"
2 - The rental agent did toss out a situation that supposedly changes the legal status of the vehicle.
Therefore, maybe the two statements are indeed connected.
However, I will point out once again that the rental agent did in fact say he has not heard of it actually happening in a long time, but that it *could* happen, in a worst case scenario.
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They could impound it on the SUSPICION of it being stolen because the driver can't produce documents showing they are authorized to be driving it. That's a lot different than the rental car company declaring it to be "stolen" after an accident and you telling them that it was not stolen, just your son driving it.

I'd say the reason are they can't forsee all the possible circumstances, you're asking a legal question of some phone person that could be in India, these companies prefer to give vague answers, and the more you believe it's dangerous to not name additional drivers the more $$ they make.

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wrote:

How does my Ins Co make any money based on my believe that it's dangerous to not name additional drivers?
They are not even a party to the rental situation unless there's a claim submitted.
In fact, they'll never make money on the transaction, they'll only pay it out if there's a covered incident. Further, it would actually behoove them to convince me *not* to list the drivers on the off chance that they could avoid paying a claim because the driver wasn't authorized.
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I was co-mingling the reasons for the rental company and your insurance company. You said you got answers from both of them and neither was clear. So, when I wrote the above, I was thinking of both of them. The rental company does have the incentive to get you to pay for the additional drivers as it's money that flows right to the bottom line.
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On 7/20/2012 1:00 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote: ...

Well, I think that's probably an overstatement of it becoming a "stolen vehicle" but undoubtedly in worst-case scenario their lawyer legal begals will be looking for any out they can dream up (and I wouldn't put a whole lot of trust that my insurance company would be just volunteering to go to bat for me, either) to minimize their cash outlay/liability.
So, the last part is always true--just how much risk do you feel like taking on to save another couple-hundred bucks? Of course, "accidents never happen to me" (until they do)...and the world is full of cases where somebody has gotten bit seriously. OTOH, there are a whole lot more somebodies who did something like that and got away with it unscathed..."no good deed goes unpunished" may have play here even if the "punishment" is simply writing a bigger check. :)
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I agree. This is a question of whther the additional cost is benefit enough for the rare case where you need it. I envision 2 scenarios for needing the extra drivers covered. One, you're making a long trip and would like to share the driving duties. Two, each of you four would like to "borrow" the car for your own individual purpose on your vacation, without necessarily all of you as passengers. In the former case, if something went wrong, you could claim feeling sick, and not fully up to driving, and you (plural) needed to get from point A to point B that day. "Force majeure". In the latter case, I'd make sure to get all the insurance you can.
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It really is just for the 15 hour drive to and from our destination.
Once we're there, I don't see a need for multiple drivers, especially for the cost.
I did find out this additional piece of information:
I can add drivers at any time just by stopping by a rental office, but once they are added, I can't take them off until the contract end date.
In other words, I can't put them on for the trip down, take them off for the week and then add them on for the trip back.
I can however, just add them on for the trip back if I'm totally exhuasted from a week of fun and sun.
I'm still working on some other discount codes to reduce the overall cost, so we'll see what happens.
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DerbyDad03 wrote:

I hope you are not considering doing this the wrong way. It could be premeditated insurance fraud now. And there is always a chance something can go wrong, you'll be bankrupt after trying to save a couple of bills.
If the kids want to drive, make them pay the extra cost.
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How did you get that from "I'm still working on some other discount codes to reduce the overall cost"?
Discount codes are either offered/accepted by the rental company or not.
How could " working on some other discount codes" be construed as "doing this the wrong way"?
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DerbyDad03 wrote:

Just reading the other stuff you wrote, I was thinking you were actually going to risk it. I take a lot of risks, but not when it might cost tens of thousands of dollars to clean up for something I could avoid.
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hmm...I just reread everything I wrote and I can't find anything that seems to indicate that I'm planning to risk it.
In fact, as I read it, I'd lean towards thinking that I was believing the that whole "stolen car" thing could be _possible_ and therefore not worth the risk.
Of course, that's how I read it, maybe because I wrote it.
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