OT: TSA vs us: Will Americans resist or wimp out?

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Lots of buzz in the news these days about the invasive (some say tantamount to being groped) body searches and full-body scans, and about the possibility of a traveler's revolt come this Thanksgiving.
See http://news.antiwar.com/2010/11/19/tsa-travelers-who-refuse-scanning-cant-leave-will-be-fined , for example.
So the question is, will Americans revolt against this outrage, or will they simply go along like the good sheep they are?
This is something that should cut straight across any political boundaries. Whether or not you believe that this whole misbegotten War on Terror is just so much manufactured bullshit, this police-state stuff ought to have everyone up in arms. The GWOT is, at best, pure folly, and at worst, a cynical ploy to keep the American sheeple riled up and whipped into a frenzy, so that no military adventure anywhere in the world seems like enough. More bombs! More drones! More special forces!
I'm the farthest thing from a Tea Partier, but it seems to me that they ought to be even more outraged than my compatriots over here on "the left". I don't listen to Glenn Beck and don't intend to start, but if he is the good demagogue that he's supposed to be, then you'd think he'd be urging his listeners to clog up the airports this coming Turkey Day.
My guess is that this whole thing'll fizzle, with most people willing to go along to get along. Too bad; it'd be nice to see the whole air travel system come to a screeching halt.
We'll see.
* To those who insist that all this security-state stuff is needed because of "the tourists", my answer is simple. Yes, terrorism exists. The best way to stop it is to stop participating in it. Stop the state terrorism that we practice and support everywhere in the world: the CIA assassinations, targeted killings, drone attacks, extraordinary renditions and the support of state-sponsored torture throughout the world.
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well if bookings decrease even 5% that will likely get the rules changed.
A cop I know said the TSA patdowns go far beyond whats done to people being arrested or in prison.
It really doesnt matter just a few SAMs fired from the ground outside the airport property can end instantly air travel as we know it today. SAMs surface to air missles are very common internationally, just bring them in the country on some people crossing the mexico border
New reports said if you fail the scan and refuse the pat down you can be arrested.
just what air travel needs today......
to be more inconvenient, more hassles, arrest some passengers.
I have tickets for christmas and may call the airline stating I want a refund, just to see what they say?
I bought my tickets months ago before this new policy
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On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 14:36:32 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com"

I'm sure cops make a good pat down on future inmate trainees. For prisons, the inmates do get touched in the junk during _routine_ pat downs.
Staff taking urine samples from inmates have to have a full frontal view of the dangling participles.
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Sounds like an EXCELLENT topic for ANOTHER newsgroup. Emphasis on "OTHER".
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To me, and obviously not to others, this is a non-issue. I really don't care. I say if it makes us safer to fly, great. Post a shadow of my junk on the internet? I could care less. If looking at something like that does it for you I'd say you have the problem not me. If being groped by a TSA agent is bad you obviously haven't had a colonoscopy or a prostate exam.
BTW: By "you" I don't mean you. <g>
Jim
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On 11/20/2010 4:03 PM JimT spake thus:

I got that, thanks.
So when you say that none of this bothers you, I totally believe you. But that's a pretty dismissive attitude; the implication is that it shouldn't bother other people either, and if it does there's something wrong with *them*. (By the way, I used the wrong phrase up above: I meant to type "some say tantamount to sexual molestation".)
It's like the parable of the frog in a pot of water. The water is tepid and the frog is happy. But the pot is over a fire, and the temperature slowly rises. At first the frog is still happy and notices nothing. But as the temperature increases, pretty soon the frog, who's grown accustomed to it, finds itself in a pot of boiling water (presumably about to be served up in a French restaurant).
We're all in that pot now, and the burner's on pretty high.
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Yeah. I understand, but I think air safety is important enough to go through something that is MUCH less invasive than a common medical procedure. (God forbid those people ever get arrested :-)As soon as one plane goes down we'll all be crying why didn't they use those machines?
Unfortunately, this isn't going to solve the problem. Boarding a plane bound for the US is much as it was 10 years ago. We boarded in Rome and all we did was walk through a metal detector. Security was very relaxed compaired to here. Pretty scary stuff.
Jim
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which is exactly why the bureaucrats have dug in their feet on this. They don't want to have to explain to 535 people (plus their staffs), of whom may 10 actually understand the problems at hand, why SOMETHING was not done. With the Congresscritters, of course, being able to see everything clearly since hindsight is 20/20. In real life, however, there is little evidence that this is doing much more than inconveniencing travelers (what Tom Clancy has noted as the only real accomplishment of terrorists from 60s forward). I still point out that Israel has lived in a very bad neighborhood for much longer, hasn't had even a failed attack (compared to at least two on US airlines since 9-11 alone) and doesn't make people take off shoes, get felt up, or X-rayed. WWEAD?? *(What would El Al do?)

Yet the airplanes from Rome are not falling out of the skies are they?
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There were Palestinian-inspired attacks that killed scores of people in both Israel and Rome, if not elsewhere. Just google rome airport massacre
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Han
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Which, of course, had nothing to do with AIRLINE security since these were in terminal at the checkout counters. Also happened in the mid 80s (which hardly qualifies as "falling from the skies") currently. Actually, I think bombing the check-in areas PRE-security is much more of a risk currently. Eventually the terrorists are going to lose their fascination with airliners and realize they can cause more problems by taking on the airports themselves.
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koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
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Kurt Ullman wrote:

Remember those those guys who shot people from the trunk of an older car? http://tinyurl.com/yrz6e4 Imagine a dozen teams like that wandering the U.S. There was some idiot here in the Midwest planting bombs in rural mailboxes. People had to leave their boxes open so they and the mail carriers could see inside. A bit here about that: http://tinyurl.com/29sgk8a
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Ah yes. Brings back the old days of the late 70 and early 80s when I was still doing fire investigations. Our until also did the scenes for post blast. Most of the time it was in the area that had a lot of guys from the Ky coal mines who had come north for various reasons. They would return from home with sticks of dynamite we were sure said things like "Souvenir of Hazard County" on the side. A few times a year one of the group would get pissed at another and blow up his F-150. That and the kids with their first chemistry set. Ahhh, for the good old days of kids and hillbillies (g).
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koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
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On 11/21/2010 7:04 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:

The events of 9/11 would have never occurred if one simple thing had been in place, "locked cockpit doors". That's all it would have taken. I doubt there would have been a slaughter of passengers if the pilots refused to unlock the door because some of the passengers would have beaten the terrorists into pulp after the first flight attendant was injured or killed.
TDD
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That and actually enforcing the rules that were already in place. Box cutters had long been on the nasty things list. Probably 99% of 9-11 was that nothing had occurred for such a long time that the system got complacient.

I am not as sure. As with many of the human species we generally start out fighting the last war. At the time, the general SOPs were based on the last war where people hijacked planes to get somewhere else. In that case it made perfect sense to cooperate and take them where they wanted to go. I don't know that even locked cockpit doors would have made a difference since the SOPs might very well have said let them in. Also, there is ample evidence that FAs and others were killed in the earlier flights. The only reason the one that went down in the cornfield did not make it was because the hijackers allowed people to call home and they found out the inevitability of their situation. At that time (and not before) when it was obvious to even the non-military passengers that the game had changed, did the masses rise up.
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On 11/21/2010 10:34 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

I think you may have forgotten flying prior to 9/11. I flew almost every week. Back then the worst case was a hijacking where some nut (or nuts) would commandeer an airplane and demand to be flown someplace.
I don't think anyone ever imagined the idea of someone commandeering a civilian airplane filled with civilians to use as a missile to destroy a civilian target filled with people until the peace loving muslims did it.
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no they tried to do it before 9 11 but werent successful, the target was the eifel tower, the airliner didnt have enough fuel to reach paris. when they stopped for fuel the terroists were attacked by swat teams.
source air emergency on national geographic channel, it gave a factual account of the situation
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<stuff snipped>

It was part of a plot of a popular Tom Clancy novel "Debt of Honor" published in 1994, a few years before the attack. The Israelis locked their cabin doors in the very early eighties. Missing the possibility of a hijacked plane as an attack vector is a very black mark for our security community and for the airline pilots who resisted the suggestion every time it was considered.
It was well-known as a possibility, and the ultimate tragedy is that an FBI agent DID question why the perpetrators were taking commercial jet flying lessons, but the FBI was too busy at the time looking for Bill Clinton's semen stains on dresses to care. We paid the ultimate price for being distracted by partisan bickering. I doubt we learned anything from it. I would say our fixation on planes NOW is because we failed to recognize their potential for ill when it really counted - before 9/11.
-- Bobby G.
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Not really. In DoH, the PILOT killed the co-pilot and put an empty plane into the Capital building. Locked cockpits in this case would have been useless.
The Israelis locked their

Never have understood why. It isn't like the FA's couldn't still get into the cockpit when needed (grin).

This is one of the few REALLY dumb statements you have ever made in a mostly logical and forthright career here. With over 33,000 employees, and over 10K field agents, the number on the Clinton investigation was minimal. The information was lost in the bureaucracy because we (as was noted earlier) grew complacent over the years.
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koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
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<stuff snipped>

Keeping those doors unlocked will eventually be regarded as one of the stupidest ideas of the twentieth century. Israel had been locking the pilot cabins on El Al jets for at least 20 years before 9/11. The FAA's guidance to "cooperate with hijackers" was also a factor, although it was thoroughly discredited as a viable strategy by the heroic passengers of flight 93 and that's why that plane failed to reach its target.
We could be smart and follow the Israeli's profiling methods but instead we hassle grandmas and little kids. I've read that the Israelis can remotely read the heart rate and respiration rate of anyone crossing into Israel and that suicide bombers always have a very abnormal heart and respiration pattern.
-- Bobby G.
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On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 11:03:22 -0500, "Robert Green"

Israel learned from Entebbe. No one else did.

Entebbe was 34 years ago and we still refuse to learn from them.
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