OT: 'They should have de-escalated'

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On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 12:49:40 AM UTC-4, Muggles wrote:

?almost immediately’

How long does it take for someone to present a deadly threat to an officer? What does "almost immediately" mean? To one person that could mean a second, to someone else minutes. If you exit the car, are coming toward the cop, reach into your waistband and the cop thinks he sees a gun, then what? And the "they" this is coming from, are how many people, standing where? What did they actually see? What did they actually say to reporters? From what I've seen it looks like there was maybe one person who was interviewed, we have no idea how far away he was or what specifically he saw.

I have yet to see a news story that says that directly. That identifies anyone specifically saying they saw it. What I see are his family and neighbors speculating that they THINK that would be what he would have been doing. And then the gullible, who want to blame the cops, take the bait. As for the actual FACTS, here's an example from CNN:
"Here's what we know so far about the shooting:
Daniel Harris was driving a Volvo on Interstate 485 in the Charlotte area w hen a trooper tried to pull him over on suspicion of speeding around 6:15 p .m. Thursday, the North Carolina State Highway Patrol said. Harris did not stop, but instead exited I-485 and drove to his Charlotte ne ighborhood, highway patrol Sgt. Michael Baker said. At the neighborhood, Harris "exited his vehicle, and an encounter took plac e between the driver and the trooper," leading to the shooting, Baker said.
Harris died at the scene. Police haven't elaborated on the encounter or rev ealed what, if anything, the two said or otherwise communicated, or whether the trooper knew Harris was deaf.

AFAIK, from all that's been stated, the family didn't see anything. They are merely speculating.

More opinion, not fact and from an obviously very biased source. What do you expect a brother to say, who didn't see anything that happened?

o me,

old the

this

Another example of sadly biased reporting. They print this, as if it's a fact that the cop knew he was deaf. No one has established that. No one has said who's name the car was in and whether even a NC driver's license, which may not have been tied to that car, has that info on it.

d-state-trooper-tried-use-sign-language-says-afraid-police-misunderstanding s.html

Good source for things happening in NC, a paper in England.
Sad that you never learn. What was ginned up in the days following the Michael Brown shooting? Remember the poor innocent black child that was walking in the street on the way home, who was executed by the cop? Remember "hands up, don't shoot"? Following full investigations the truth came out and it was very different from what was first heard. Many of the "witnesses" fessed up that they didn't really see it, were lying, etc. It turned out that the innocent black child had just robbed a convenience store and the cop was stopping the two of them because they matched the description. It turned out that the innocent child had assaulted the cop while the cop was still in his car, tried to get the cops gun, the gun went off injuring Brown. Yet Brown was still not deterred. All supported by forensics. A very, very, different story than the BS that emerged in the first week.
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On 8/30/2016 8:56 AM, trader_4 wrote:

You and others are saints for even attempting to instill logic within a densely populated forest of emotionally enraged liberal tunnel visioned idiocy. Unless the driver actually pulled a gun on the cops, she will NEVER cease to accept the fact it's his fault.
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On 8/30/2016 12:32 PM, Meanie wrote:

The buck stops at the feet of the cop who chose to shoot the man.
The law specifically defines under which circumstances deadly force can be used, and these particular circumstances deadly force was not a legal action.
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Muggles wrote:

Maybe I misunderstood your previous posts , this is the first one I've seen you come right out and say that the cop was wrong . We still don't have all the facts , and those facts may indicate that the cop was in fact justified . If both cars were banged up ... that ain't just a guy not stopping .
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On 8/30/2016 1:53 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:

Go read the other thread. She has said that many times.
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Ed Pawlowski wrote:

OK , I didn't know there was another thread .
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On 8/30/2016 3:01 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:

What I've said all along is that the cop used deadly force when he should have given the man a speeding ticket. The scenario of events demanded that the police officer seek out other means to deescalate and communicate with the deaf man AND engage his lengthy and extensive professional training for a better outcome.
I've also said that LE is HIGHLY trained to deal with the public in all sorts of scenarios, BUT the public is NOT highly trained to deal with LE and often have no clue how to do so, therefore, the onus of responsibility for this situation becoming volatile and dangerous is on the HIGHLY trained police officer. He had other options like tasering the man, calling in back-up, calling for a supervisor, and getting an interpreter to communicate with the deaf man. Did he try ANY of those options? No - he chose to shoot an unarmed deaf man who couldn't hear their commands and his only means of communicating was sign language. He was shot for waving his arms at the cops.
I've also challenged other arguments that have said that the cop had every right to respond that way, including, the arguments that the deaf man was trying to "evade" LE, which would have changed his crime from a misdemeanor 1, to a felony. EVEN if that WERE true the punishment he got does NOT fit his crime.
Additionally, I've challenged other arguments along the way, and even researched the North Carolina laws that reference how speeding and fleeing and evading police is defined, who is responsible for how it's defined, how the responsibility is divided up between local LE by enacting policy and procedures, and how the individual officer is responsible to interpret those local LE policies.
The objections of several people here are that I've chosen to have an opinion before all of the evidence has been gathered and investigated, but there are FACTS that will never justify deadly and those facts will never change, therefore, I've simply stood my ground as far as my opinion is on this topic.
The point at which someone can prove the punishment for the deaf mans actions were deserving of a death, I'll be happy to change my viewpoint.
Oh ... one other thing. I've taken this stand because I'm hearing impaired, and I want people to know how this scenario is perceived by people from a hearing impaired point of view.
I can hear some, and I'm not totally deaf, but I can understand not wanting to pull over on a noisy highway and wanting to go to a safe place that "I" feel is safe, which might not be as soon as someone else who is a fully hearing person.
Some people have said that there's a specific protocol drivers should follow if the cops try to stop them: stop asap, put your hands on the steering wheel, and wait for the cop to approach you. The major problem with that is the public has NO idea they're supposed to do that - the public has NO training on how to deal with LE. Sure, we can watch Youtube videos, but that does not equal training.
LE is HIGHLY trained to deal with the public. They're taught how to assess scenarios, how to deescalate situations, and how to communicate with us, BUT, still people are shot and killed because they don't engage their training.
I find that very sad.
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Muggles wrote:

And I say that until we have all the facts , we don't know if the cop was justified or not . I as defending you until it was pointed out to me that you have jumped out on a limb with no justification in facts . I'll withhold judgement until we have those facts .
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On 8/30/2016 6:16 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:

As far as I'm concerned there are enough FACTS that exist now to determine deadly force was unnecessary, AND illegal. I've no problem with coming to that conclusion, now.
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On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 7:23:24 PM UTC-4, Muggles wrote:

Of course you don't. That's what makes you the village idiot.
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On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 7:17:04 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:

But we do know damn well that the cop didn't shoot the guy when he should have given him a speeding ticket. The shooting, by what little we have to go on, occurred after a 7 mile chase that ended with both cars damaged, the police car smoking, the perp's car spun out in front of his house. If that's correct, then it was at least felony eluding, by a guy with a history of resisting police in multiple states.
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On 8/30/2016 6:42 PM, trader_4 wrote:

The man was speeding. The cops escalated the situation. Had they backed off, they could have approached the man later and given him the ticket, and found out he was deaf and mute. They could have made other choices as to how they would follow-up other than lethal force.
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snipped-for-privacy@2thenxtholi.day says...

While I agree that the general public has no idea how to act when stopped, how much training do you think it would take to just sit in the car, maybe put the window down (as many cars now have electric windows) and put your hands on the wheel unntuil instructed otherwise.
Maybe the states could put a few 15 second ads on the television to do this.
While not everyone is required to do it, many states have driver education for the high school students that are arund 15 to 16 years old. They should be instructed there as how to act. I remember taking a course in high school during the summer break and even had to spend a few hours at the court house as an observer during some traffic cases.
I live in NC and am 66 and took that dirvers ed, so most people of drivers age should have had the chance to do it. I am thinking that if one does not take the course they have to be 18 to obtain a drivers license.
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On 8/30/2016 6:25 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

You're talking about the public. We have people who get driver's licenses who have all sorts of personal issues. Some might be able to actually REMEMBER such training, others may simply forget everything they've been taught when under stress. <shrugs>
OTOH, LE is screened to only allow people who have the innate abilities needed to retain such training.

That might help. It might even be a great idea. The problem I see with it is that people may see it as promoting a police state.

I don't know what driver's ed teaches these days, but when I took it cops weren't so aggressive and neither were people who were driving.

It would be a good idea now-a-days to include drivers ed training on how to respond to LE, but LE should be required to teach that, imo.
Thanks for responding! :)
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On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 7:25:49 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:

And this perp was not the general public. He has a rap sheet with other arrests for resisting, interfering with law enforcement in several states. This wasn't his first rodeo. Anyone capable of learning, would have learned from those other incidents. This guy instead does what Muggles advocates. He decided who's right and who's wrong and if he thinks he's right, then he won't stop, won't cooperate with a cop. We can all see how that worked out here and in so many other cases.
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On 8/30/2016 12:53 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:

I've responded to another of your posts after this one, and explained in detail my stance on this topic.
Additionally, even IF both cars were banged up, it's STILL NOT grounds for using lethal force under the laws written by the legislature of North Carolina.
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Muggles wrote:

Depends on HOW they got banged up ... judgement withheld pending disclosure of facts .
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On 8/30/2016 6:18 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:

Cars get banged up all the time in fender benders, and it's still illegal to use deadly force over it.
The NC laws state specifically the conditions that have to be met in order for deadly force to be legal. Fender benders/banged up cars isn't on the list.
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Muggles wrote:

Is attempting to run the cop off into a bridge abutment (and banging up both cars in the process) considered deadly force ? You've gone bulldog over this whole thing . I'm done with you .
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