OT Surgery prices.

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and if you had been able to find out, how would that have changed your relationship with your hospital?
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On Apr 24, 10:30 pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" <atlas-

Simple. If the hospital's charges are out of line, choose another hospital. Geez.
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On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 06:15:41 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

Or decide the procedure isn't worth the money. Those decisions are made about every other aspect of our lives but when it comes to "health care" someone else will pay. It's easy for most (particularly lefties) to spend other people's money.
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that wasn't the question. Geez
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not at all. I believe that oil companies should have the freedom to pollute water any time they want and the lawyers will earn money suing them. I'm also in favor of companies sneaking products (albeit it isn't harmful, just sneaky) like pink slime into our ground beef and then the free market leveled the field. In fact if you look closely, most environmentalists that fight the good fight are just using the free market to make their point.

nothing, it's actually the law
http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/health/transparency-and-disclosure-health-co sts.aspx

of course not, SUVs are for soccer moms. but I also don't go to an auto dealer for an appendectomy

in general as it is not likely that I'll pay for that operation, that's what insurance is for, wouldn't the free market cause the insurance companies to manage how much they will pay and just let us go get the help we want/need?
seems like all you are really saying is that the free market doesn't work.
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problems until someone got upset and gave it its name and then some reporter grabbed hold of the "slime" part and ran with it. There has never been any indication in studies or otherwise that it was bad for you or less than pure.

I would suggest that there is NO free market in health care and hasn't been since WWII when the responsibility for health insurance was taken away from me (figuratively, I ain't that old) and given to my employer. The last figures I saw showed that we pay less than 20% of all health care costs (including the premium for the insurance) out of our own pockets. How can anything where the payment for services (by employer) and user of services (you and me) are so completely divorced be considered a remotely free market. Add in the 80% subsidy...
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That depends on your definition of "pure". That stuff has to be processed with ammonia gas to make it edible. Used to be fit only for dog food. I don't consider that as very pure, but go ahead, enjoy it. I'd rather grind my own beef and know where it came from
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The ammonia gas was used to kill off e.coli and nothing else. Ammonia is used in many forms in other food. Under this particular standard the ammonia compounds that are used as leavening agents in baked goods and as an acidity controller in cheese and sometimes chocolate should mean those go too? "Pink Slime" has been in the food chain for almost 20 years with no problems. No links to any disease. No links to outbreaks of problems. In fact when it first came out, it was looked upon with favor since it was viewed as healthier (the Dreaded Ammonia--- long noted by the FDA as an acceptable food additive-- killed the e. coli and other Nasties).
This sorta illustrates the issue best: ³ItΉs substantively not the most critical health issue, yet it was framed in such a way that the public outcry actually changed food policy in a matter of weeks,² said Sarah Klein, a lawyer at the Center for Science in the Public Interest. ³If we could figure out the formula and apply it to ***serious public health issues***, that would be amazing.² (Emphasis mine of course).
Heck, even the ambulance chasers are unimpressed: Bill Marler, a Seattle lawyer who has built a business out of suing meat companies, said BPIΉs lean beef is safe enough. ³ItΉs not any more or less dangerous than anything else in hamburger,² Marler said.
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but this must make the old krow happy. it's the free market at it's best
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I didn't say it bad for you, just a sneak attempt to put a processed product (and yes, the pink slime is processed) in an otherwise raw product. It's the labeling.

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had been for around 20 years. Besides ALL meat is processed unless you personally cut it off the animal yourself. It was nothing but beef that had been put in a machine to spin it off the bone. Nothing was added as the ammonia treatment was removed prior to packaging.
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this isn't true. the meat is heated twice in the process. is any of your ground beef heated in the process?
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WIll be eventually. That is hardly a reason to demonize something and run it off the market.
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On 4/26/2012 7:35 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:

How do you think think it should be labeled: "Fresh Ground Beef" or simply "Ground Beef"?
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gonjah <gonjah.net> wrote:

Yahoo search that indicates it is cooked even once. If that is so, it as fresh as any other ground beef. Since the hooha, many of the processors asked the FDA to be able to label the beef in a specific manner. That is fine, too.
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On 4/26/2012 8:44 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:

It seems pretty innocuous to me but needs to be labeled correctly in grocery stores at least IMO.
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gonjah <gonjah.net> wrote:

Since this is all beef and nothing but beef and the ammonia is only a treatment with virtually no residual and even then the ammonia has been studied by teh FDA and given the normal designation, I really don't see any need. This is not a filler like cornmeal or a preservative or other additive. It just a little more beef. (Also Conagra and many others use citric acid as the bug killer.
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On 4/26/2012 9:18 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:

I thought they were adding it to store grd beef. That blows the concept of "fresh" IMO. YMMV.
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gonjah <gonjah.net> wrote in

By recall from the TV discussions: Seems to me that they did heat it at some point right after it came of the carcass, to melt away the fat. Then it was treated with ammonia (vapor I believe, so that wouldn't really leave any residue). Then the final product was packed (not sure whether it was frozen).
It is derived from bovines, so it could be called beef. But like the cheese, it should be called processed. Then I have no problem with it. Sort of truth in advertising, not fibbing. And, yes I'd eat it, or have eaten it, or whatever.
One more thing I'd like to know. How sure are we that no nervous tissue is getting in this treated beef? I wouldn't like to catch Jacob- Creutzfeld disease, aka mad cow.
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On 4/26/2012 10:33 AM, Han wrote:

http://www.concordmonitor.com/sites/all/files/photos/031912_PinkSlime.jpg
I've been sticking to truly fresh ground for quite sometime now. I love 80/20 ground for cheeseburgers. It's become almost an obsession.
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