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On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 04:57:26 -0500, "Robert Green"

Cheating on ones income tax by not declaring any income is no different than cheating on welfare. By your own differentiation then you have absolutely no problem with "undocumented workers" not paying their "fair share" and as a result causing your tax burden to increase.
It's interesting how our idiot-in-chief's plan to redistribute the wealth affects so many of those that have no clue.
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wrote:

Do you really expect us to believe that farm laborers, doing poorly-paid jobs that Americans WILL NOT DO, are making enough money to pay taxes? Ask Kurt, he tells us often that even if they had documents, at their income level they should be getting money BACK from the Federal government. But they don't. They pay into Social Security, workmen's comp and all sorts of other programs that they'll never be able to utilize. It's estimated that undocumented immigrants pay about $7 billion per year in Social Security taxes that they will never be able to reclaim. So your point is pointless. Even if they *had* to file, they'd get money back, not owe taxes.

Fair share? You're serious, aren't you? That's really kind of sad. I have no problem with the "alleged" problem you're describing because it's not a real problem, just one *you've* manufactured for political purposes. Immigrants barely make enough money to survive, let alone pay taxes. Jeez. Use common sense.
I pity your inability to discriminate between the two types of "illegal" immigrants - those with a work ethic who come here to work and better their lot and those who come here to prey on our citizens and our welfare system. The farmworker does a job for YOU that your fellow Americans won't. You probably eat the fruits of their underpaid labor every day. So you kick them in the teeth after they've fed you? How's that for gratitude? It's the Republican way. No wonder why Obama's 9 points ahead in the polls.

Ah, you know I just love when folks like you prove that Republicans resort to insults whenever they encounter information that's not in line with Rush's "talking points." Examining facts rather than fears, it will be easy to see which of us is really "clueless." You make the somewhat incredible claim that people who take the worst jobs in America at the lowest wages possible are "tax delinquents." That's hysterically funny and one of the reasons that the man you label an "idiot" won in 2008 and now is 9 points ahead in the polls. People see through the horsecrap the R's are shoveling. Let's take your alleged "cheating" problem honestly:
Aside from paying an estimated $7 billion in payroll taxes they'll never benefit from, and working hard to put fod on your table, every time an undocumented worker buys something, they pay sales tax. That money goes to state and local governments. If they fill up their gas tank, they automatically pay state and federal gasoline taxes. If they are able to afford liquor or cigarettes, they automatically pay various local, state, and federal excise taxes. Immigrants, legal and illegal, all buy things, and thus pay these taxes as part of their purchase.
Local governments also collect property taxes which fund services like schools, certain medical services, and police and fire stations. Immigrants pay these taxes directly if they own a home, or indirectly if they rent. The real tax burden in working class America consists largely of these inescapable taxes that immigrants and poor people HAVE to pay every day to stay alive.
So, you're "intensely" worried about people who make so little they would likely GET MONEY BACK if, as you suggest, they filed?? I don't believe not filing their income taxes is criminal at their level of income (plenty of US citizens don't file, BTW). Check out what they CAN'T receive if they don't file. They're doing us a favor by not filing:
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id 5097,00.html
So let's sum up:
1) You're worried that "illegals" are adding SEVEN BILLION dollars to the US Treasury paying into Social Security, etc that they will never benefit from?
2) You're worried that they're contributing to state and local governments in the form of sales, use and property taxes?
3) You're worried because produce is too cheap now and you want farmers to have to pay US workers two or three times what they pay immigrants and raise your food bill sky high?
What is it you're *really* worried about Gordon? Could it be that you're aware that horsecrap like this anti-immigrant witch-hunting isn't likely to carry Mitt into the Whitehouse? I'd be worried about that, too, if I were still a Republican. Mitt can't carry his own party - how on earth do you expect him to carry the nation?
Thanks for the opportunity to debunk yet another Rush/Republican talking/lying point.
Here's a link for those who haven't yet realized what it means to cut off your nose to spite your face:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2045936/Now-LEGAL-immigrants-fleeing-Alabama-new-immigration-law-thats-tough-hurting-economy.html
<<A staggering one quarter of commercial building workers are thought to have left the state since tight regulations were introduced . . . on Chandler Mountain in north Alabama, tomato farmer Lana Boatwright said only eight of the 48 Hispanic workers she needed for harvest showed up after the law took effect . . . Farmer Chad Smith said his family farm stands to lose up to $150,000 because there are not enough workers to pick tomatoes spoiling in the fields.
'We will be lucky to be in business next year,' he said.>>
Keep cutting that nose. Eventually, it'll look like Michael Jackson's.
-- Bobby G.
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well stated
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wrote:

Thanks, but It doesn't matter. It's just too damn easy for some people to blame all their problems on a group of people that can't defend themselves, even when they personally benefit. Facts won't dissuade them. It's fun to watch them dance around the facts, though.
Maybe paying $2 each for apples picked by American workers with full legal status will convince those clamoring for every undocumented worker to be deported. That's exactly what will happen if growers have to hire Americans workers who would enjoy the full protection of US labor laws. There's an old saying: "It takes two to tango." In this case it's the workers AND the growers who support the status quo.
-- Bobby G.
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On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 12:44:09 -0500, "Robert Green"

In that ideal scenario my tax liability would be thousands of dollars less per year so that $2 apple would be a bargain. Then our imposter-in-chief could achieve what he has been striving for... for everyone to pay their fair share!
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On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 20:17:28 -0500, "Robert Green"

Why not? I pay taxes on what I earn, so should everyone else.

With a flat tax they wouldn't get money back. As the idiot-in-chief keeps preaching they too would "pay their fair share."

No shit Sherlock!

If the poor, poor undocumented workers barely make enough to survive the can go back where they came from. But apparently with no tax liability they are extremely happy to stay here. I think you need a little common sense.

There is only one type of illegal immigrant -- an illegal one.

No insult -- he IS an idiot.
<rest of crap snipped>
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and those illegal aliens do, unless their employer is paying them under that table...in which case he should be deported
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wrote:

Good point. But I don't think Gordon gets it, living way out there in space with Alf on Planet Melmac. It turns out that the "E-verify" system has driving much of the farm labor "underground." That means the laborers probably don't even make minimum wage or have any other legal protections afforded to most other US workers. Yet they still come here to work. It's abundantly clear from what's happened in California and elsewhere that rich growers *depend* on low-paid immigrant labor and fight tooth and claw to preserve their access to it whenever they can. It's typical that hatred-driven people want to throw out all the laborers that put food on their table without a single thought as to who will do that work when they are gone.
<<Poverty defines the farmworkers' lives. Overall, three-fifths of all farmworkers are poor, with 75 percent earning less than $10,000 annually. The average hourly wage of farmworkers was $5.94 in 1998, with purchasing power declining steadily each year since 1989. What's most startling is that each income statistic is halved when applied to undocumented workers. -- Charles D. Thompson, Jr. and Melinda F. Wiggins, eds., The Human Cost of Food: Farmworkers' Lives, Labor, and Advocacy (Austin: University of Texas Press, 2002)>>
And Gordon expects people paid poverty wages that put food on his table to have a tax liability and pay "their fair share." He doesn't realize he's "eating" their fair share. Most earn less than $10,000 per year and undocumented workers half that. I guess you actually have to know facts to make informed decisions.
The real irony is that the last vestiges of the American work ethos are embedded in these workers who come here to work and make a better life for their families. Hundreds die each year trying to get here, just so they can do the worst jobs we have for some of the lowest wages paid in the country.
-- Bobby G.
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wrote:

As I recall Bush 43 proposed a system where guest worker passes good for 3 years would be available so that those that are coming here illegally now instead be documented and work legally. As usual, it was all the liberals who were dead set against it, so it never happened.
I remember vacationing in Florida at the time. I ran into two guys that owned a restaurant in Iowa. They were complaining about how hard it was to find English speaking help for the kitchen and how they were using illegal Mexicans. I asked then what they thought of Bush's guest worker program. Their response - "That's just EXPLOITATION!". That's right these guys, bleeding heart liberals who were using the illegal Mexicans were calling the Bush proposal exploitation.
You have any relatives that own restaturants in Iowa, Bob?
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You're not paying attention. Or you hatred has blinded you. Either way you don't seem to understand that immigrant farm labor is the most poorly paid work in the country. They would NOT have to file. They don't pass the income threshold. Simple as pie.

WTF? Who ever said anything about a flat tax in this thread, or are you just chomping at the bit to call the President an "idiot" every chance you get? Looks like you'll have another four years of opportunity because posters like you alienate the independents that actually elect presidents. Keep spitting insults -- maybe you'll push Obama right over the top. You hardliners never seem to get it. Independents do. You lost the last election for President and you'll probably lose the next one.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/barackobama/9084692/US-election-Barack-Obama-ahead-of-GOP-field-in-New-York-TimesCBS-poll-as-Mitt-Romneys-popularity-declines.html

You just don't understand, do you? They don't make enough money to have to file or pay taxes. Yet they have taxes taken out of their paychecks that unlike poor citizens that they're never get refunds for. That seems pretty simple. You just seem hung up on hating immigrants. That's a typical simplistic solution. Find a group that's politically weak and blame them for ALL your problems. Where have we seen that before?

They come here because there are NO opportunities for them where they came from and the rule of law is weak, allowing drug gangs to roam freely. And they work. Hard. Doing jobs that DON'T GET DONE without them. "Go back home where they came from?" Seems to me I've heard that BS line in yet another context of hatred.

Now it's time for you to put your thinking cap on and wonder why this problem hasn't been fixed. It's because neither side WANTS it fixed. The Republican and Democratic growers want a steady supply of cheap labor and the Republican and Democratic consumers want cheap food. So you're barking at the moon. Enjoy. The moon doesn't care and neither do I. BTW, the Federal goverment distinguishes between the criminal and non-criminal immigrant and they're in charge of immigration, not you. Hmmm - should I listen to a hate-spewing, insulting internet poster or experts who have studied the problem. That's a tough one. (-"

Yeah, sure. And idiot that managed to beat the Republicans in the last election. You only *wish* you had an "idiot" smart enough to win an election. Instead your party pandered to the likes of Palin, someone who couldn't even finish out her term as governor because she was so afraid of the shady dealing the press might uncover. I understand your misery.

Go have yourself an apple and wonder who picked it for you, Gordon. It was probably a hard-working "illegal" alien. So much for your devotion to your cause. You'll eat the fruit of their labor and then kick them in the teeth for providing food for you and yours. And people wonder what's wrong with America.
-- Bobby G.
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On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 21:22:14 -0500, "Robert Green"
<snipped the rest of his rant>

The one, and the most important word, you forgot in the above sentence was "illegal." What part of "illegal" don't you understand?
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illegally. We have the most open doors in the world even with our current quota system.

love for immigrants, aren't all upset because they are exploited so easily. Alhtough that doesn't stop the more liberal to exploit them for political reasons, too.

Thus the problems, but I digress.

Of course, the Dems lost twice to the Shrub. Never have understood why both party's rhetoric tends toward pride at being beaten by the Village Idiot (grin).

well defined and, as government regulations go, fairly black and white. You'll gladly take the fruit of their labor, pay them less for it, so you can have your aforementioned apple. Which is the greater hypocrisy?
--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
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wrote:

He lost it to the independents, just like I said. The base certainly voted for him. Many will still chime in about how much they loved her and will blast the "librul" media for questioning her dealings as Governor, as if she were magically immune from such inquiries because she was so "purdy."
I was talking about the rather rabid way some conservatives approach debate, as in Gordon's comments about "heads up asses." It's funny to watch someone lose their self-control and then blame their lack of control on someone else. "The Devil made me do it" excuse, slightly recast, that seems to me to indicate a wholesale failure to take personal responsibility. McCain and Palin both were not known for their kind words. It seemed that every Palin failure in the public eye was blamed on the liberal media being out to "get her" instead of simply expose her as a candidate that made even Obama look experienced. Funny how those "librul" media charges didn't get made when Bush was President.
The right was just fine with the media back then. It's only when they're losing that the blame game gets played. You may think it was the people involved, but a lot had to do with their attitudes. McCain's star began to fade during his "air drop" into Washington when he arrogantly believed he was going to solve the economic crisis which was largely solved outside of his presence. Yes, choosing Palin was the nail in his coffin but his campaign was already falling apart by then. She was just the icing on the cake in so many ways.

It's naive to think that laws like the one passed in Alabama are so surgically precise that only illegals are stopped, hassled or feel threatened by it. Let's see if a place like *ever* Alabama passes a law that results in white males being stopped on the street and asked for papers. Passing laws that affect illegal immigrants affects ALL immigrants. Foreign executives with Mercedes and Honda were detained under the new law. "Good business climate?" In a pig's eye.

Yes. I can see how "dumb furriners" could get confused by the big green lady with the torch and the poem.
"Give me your tired, your poor (but no more Mexicans, please - we've got enough) your huddled masses yearning to breath free (but not in Alabama or Arizona) The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. (We really would prefer those with advanced degrees and cash) Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, (and we'll send them right back!) I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" (So I can better see who's foreign looking to detain them)."
It was the same in Arizona. Anyone who looked like a "damned furriner" to the cops could be detained and asked for papers as if this were WWII Europe. "Your papers, please!" When you pass laws that allow the cops to stop people based on nothing more than "looking foreign" you've crossed a line, whether you realize it or not. Do you think Alabama would have passed a law allowing the cops to detain anyone who had a crewcut and was white, like Timothy McVeigh, greatest domestic terrorist in history? Of course not.
While the Feds hammer away at the legality of such "stop the foreign looking guy" laws, Alabama residents themselves are less sanguine about the law than they once were because they're experiencing the laws of unintended consequences.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/16/us/alabama-immigration-law-changes/index.html
<<A prominent Alabama state senator is leading an effort to revise the state's controversial anti-illegal immigration law, saying "unintended consequences" make some changes necessary. Senate majority whip Gerald Dial, a Republican, said the changes under consideration are the result of comments made to him and his colleagues from constituents. Among revisions the legislators are looking at eliminating are a requirement for public schools to ask legal status of new students, and verification of status to apply for and renew professional and business licenses, and to renew car tags.>>

Yes. Improving their lot is a cakewalk. I'll get to it as soon as I can make the case for their right to even EXIST. Don't put the cart before the horse. It's hard to fight for better rights for them when they're fighting for their very right to exist.

This was all about distinguishing between aliens who come here to work hard and do so and those that come to exploit the welfare system. Guys like Gordon don't seem able to discriminate between the two. It's sounding a little like you can't either although I was certain that you could.
If exploitation means giving them a chance to escape the murderous environment in Mexico that's partly the result of our failed war on drugs, then I'm an exploiter, I guess. If allowing them to stay and work hard after they've shown how stupidly weak our national borders are, then I am an exploiter. If their coming here means that they actually succeed in building a better life for their children, I guess I am an exploiter. And proud of it.
Hasn't anyone wondered why the TSA makes us throw out our lighters and pocket knives at the airport when a rather large army of illegals have "pierced" our borders and is working here, contributing to the food supply? Because it's all political theater meant to impress the easily impressed. And the easily fooled.

We're getting exactly the level of enforcement we're a) willing to pay for and b) willing to accept. They wouldn't be here unless farmers and other ag processors were willing to pay them. We both know it's the agricultural giants that are more than happy to have a workforce they can underpay or pay under the table. It's easy to keep an illegal in thrall. You just threaten to deport them and they'll do whatever you want. That's pure exploitation.
I have to post this comment from someone who alleges to be a dairyworker who responded to a story about a diary being fined for hiring illegals:
http://www.michigansthumb.com/articles/2011/11/11/news/local_news/doc4eba78eac6a9c017870731.txt DairyWorker wrote on Nov 9, 2011 7:14 PM:
<< If you have seen the caliber of people that normally come and apply at the farm, you would choose to hire illegals, as well! Most of the people who want a job at the farm are addicts and felons. Who would you rather have working for you? Someone who will come to work every day because they're trying to provide for their family, or someone who is there to fund their habit? Before any of you speak, you should try a farm job. Then you'll really understand why they hired the way they did.>>
Allowing them to stay because however bad it is here, it's much better than where they came from is far less exploitative. Tens of thousands of Mexicans have died in the name of our drug wars, some of them with guns supplied by the ATF. At least here they are just being financially and socially abused, not massacred. While it may not seem much of in improvement to us, I am sure they feel differently. (-: My grandparents came here to escape oppression in Europe that would have likely killed them had they stayed too long. I can easily see how some Mexican immigrants feel the same way.

Gore got fu&ed by proxy with Clinton's roving weiner and Kerry was as exciting as a bucket of warm spit. They deserved to lose and they did.

The reason is we've degenerated into a football game mentality about government. I try to resist calling the leader of the free world an idiot, Republican or Democrat. No one got to be POTUS by being stupid. As much as I disagree with Bush's war policies, I think he was doing what he and his advisers thought was best for the country. I believe Obama's doing the very same.
Back when the wars started, some pundits in the US believed that the new European Union was going to represent a serious threat to us economically and we acted very strongly to counter any perception they were an equal. Arf arf. No one realized that the EU was a herd of cats, very soon to start going off in dozen different directions.

So that means the 9/11 terrorists and the guy who picked the apple you're eating are equal entities? Forgive me if I don't believe that. We are given brains which we can use to discriminate differences. To me this is as simple as the puzzle books in grade school. Which one is NOT like the others?
It is the one who comes here to work at dirty jobs that the economy demands (AND FARMERS KEEP HIRING - despite the risks!!!) to make a better life for his family - OR - the one who comes here to fly planes into our national landmarks and kill thousands of people? One contributes to our economy, follows a work ethic, tries to make life better for his family and is smart enough to leave a country where the murder rate might be eight times ours. The other is a mass-murderer. To say all illegals are equal is to have a perilously coarse intellectual resolution that I know you don't possess. So why profess it? That can't result in rational debate. FWIW, the State Department has just issued new rules that essentially say "leave the working aliens alone, go after the ones that have criminal histories." That sounds pretty sane to me.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/08/obama-administration-halts-deportations-of-non-criminal-immigrants /
<<The Obama administration today announced it will no longer actively seek to deport illegal immigrants who don't have criminal records and that it will review all existing deportation cases involving non-criminal immigrants on a case-by-case basis. The news follows months of intense pressure from immigrant advocates who had urged the president to use his administrative authority to refocus the government's limited law enforcement resources while congressional gridlock over a comprehensive immigration system overhaul persists.>>

Ouch. There's that "ability to discriminate" issue raising its ugly head. I don't pay them, so the exploitation is at least removed one step from me. (-: I DO know that they are not being killed. I know that their life here, even working in the fields, is better than where they came from. That's precisely WHY they come here. And stay here - voluntarily. Unlike Gordon, I don't begrudge them their menial jobs, which are sadly commensurate with their language and work skills. Nor do I want to send them back to the lives of misery they came from. As for it being a "liberal" issue, ask Mitt about his illegal alien gardeners. The richer you are, it seems, the more likely you're going to fall into the trap of hiring illegals.
<< In an exchange with Texas Gov. Rick Perry, Romney said, "I don't think I've ever hired an illegal in my life." We rated the claim Mostly False, citing credible evidence, primarily from a Boston Globe investigation in 2006, that undocumented lawn care laborers from Guatemala had worked at his home for years.>>
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2011/oct/20/taking-us-task-ruling-romney-and-his-lawn-care-wor /
What I resist strongly is the urge to blame illegal aliens for everything that's wrong with American society. The decision about who to admit to the country is a largely (and horribly) political one. Both D & R's administrations have erred, IMHO, in letting a very large number of Muslims into the country, as England, France and many other nations have. Somehow, the US immigration quota setters didn't realize that they were not going to assimilate the way our German, Italian, Irish and other forefathers did. We're going to end up paying a price for that as other countries are. Not a liberal perspective, but I believe an honest one. We want assimilators, not covert assassins. There's incredible pressure for Muslim terrorists groups to place "sleepers" in our country making it a very difficult task to tell who's a refugee from Iraq and who's here to commit terrorism. This time around, we seemed to have learned something from the past and Iraqi immigration has been far lower than it has been for other countries we've entered into conflicts in.
I'd much rather admit an apolitical farm laborer than someone who's going to become a political activist representing interests that probably aren't going to be quite in line with the American work ethic. Who are all these people who want Muslin centers near the WTC site and Sharia law courts? People WE let in before we realized that they would not wish to blend in the way our forefathers did.
From what I've seen, illegals that work at farm and construction jobs assimilate to the point of invisibility because they try so hard to avoid La Migra. Illegal immigrant farmworkers are such a little part of America's serious problems that it's easy to see that they are simply scapegoats. I find that distasteful no matter what society does it - and they ALL do. I lived next to illegals for a long time. They were absolutely perfect neighbors, unlike some citizens I've lived next to.
As you noted, this is a long standing problem with very deep roots. It's not going to be solved easily by states passing laws that allow them to detain anyone foreign-looking just for being foreign-looking. Expect the Supreme Court to gut both Arizona and Alabama laws for violating a concept known as equal protection under the law. Eventually. And no, they won't be protecting illegal aliens, they will be protecting the Federal government's exclusive right to decide immigration matters and protecting *legal* immigrants from being caught up in the insanely wide net these anti-immigrant laws cast.
If Alabama truly had all the answers, then Jefferson County wouldn't have had to declare the biggest municipal bankruptcy in US history. That's as blunt as an admission of failure of government as you can get. They're well on their way to being the California of the Red States. I have little tolerance for either state's shenanigans.
<< BIRMINGHAM, Alabama -- Jefferson County, facing $4.23 billion in debt and running short of cash, gave up Wednesday on reaching a deal with its creditors and immediately filed the largest government bankruptcy in U.S. history. Late Wednesday, county attorneys filed a raft of documents, listing nearly 200 pages of businesses and individuals to whom Jefferson County owes money. Those pages carried the names of more than 5,000 creditors. The largest creditor is JPMorgan Chase & Co., which owns about $1 billion of the county's $3.14 billion debt for sewer construction.>> Source:
http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2011/11/jefferson_county_files_for_lar.html
So, at a time when a huge Alabama county is starving for cash, Alabamans support a measure that's going to cost them serious money to enforce in a state that has a relatively small illegal population. It will reduce the number of workers, the number of consumers, drive up enforcement costs and in general hammer the economy just so Alabama can thumb their noses at the Feds. That doesn't inspire confidence in leadership especially when they've demonstrated that at least some of their leaders lack fiscal discipline. Everyone who is owed money by Jefferson County is going to take it in the wallet, hard. Bankruptcies have serious "trickle down" consequences.
-- Bobby G.
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Robert Green wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2045936/Now-LEGAL-immigrants-fleeing-Alabama-new-immigration-law-thats-tough-hurting-economy.html
paying his share of it) but not witholding income tax. Do you have any proof of this, or is it just a fabrication.
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wrote:

of course many drug dealers may in fact be undocumented pharmacists
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I've noticed that liberals rename things, with great regularity.
Lets start a list:
Love child = bastard born out of wedlock Invest In America = raising your taxes fiscal irresponsibility = lowering your taxes domestic partners = living in sin, and fornicating
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
On the other hand, I hear liberals using the term "undocumented workers", which is a poorly disguised code word for illegal aliens, every day. Does that upset you?
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you forgot "guest worker" = underpaid and non-benefitted foreigner doing jobs that americans won't do

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On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 08:19:12 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"

liberal = socialist socialist = communist
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republican = conservative conservative = xian xian = KKK
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On 2/13/2012 10:10 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:

KKK = Democrats
Look it up the origins of The Ku Klux Klan you moron. ^_^
TDD
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