snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote in rec.food.cooking:
Clap! +5
Some folks do not know how to actually run the numbers. Replacing a waterheater that is about 200$ that costs under 300$ a year to run with a 3,000$ unit will not pay off. EVER. Most of us pay less than 300$ a year to heat water. Mine is gas so 1/2 that. It would take me 20 years to break even and by then, the tankless unit would have long been toast.
For the number challanged. At 300$ a year operation (high end), it takes 10 years to pay for a tankless and for all that time, you also pay electric for the tankless to use. IE: you pay close to 1/2 the operation costs with a tankless but your up front cost means you will not pay off on it. Ever.
I'm on gas and I checked. I run 13.75 a month on average based on the ratings. I run an annual average of 47.27 a month total for gas but I have gas heat and a gas stove.
Yoose obviously don't bathe daily. I'm convinced yoose have no idea how much hot water yoose use... most people haven't a clue about their hot water use. There's really no way to compare until one installs a tankless on demand water heater because everyone's hot water usage differs. I already know I save a $1,000 a year... when still working people have no idea how much hot water they use at work... I know I used a good amount in hot water and actual water. Most use their companie's facilities a lot more than they are willing to admit.
Your numbers are impossible. Heating the water you use costs the same with both tank and tankless. It takes 1 BTU to raise1 lb of water 1 degree F - that is a law that cannot be broken. gallon (US ) of water weighe 8.34 lbs, do it tales
8.23 BTU to raise a gallon 1 degree.. With comfortable shower temp of
105, and average inlet temp of 51, you need to raise the temperature by 50 degrees - so 417 BTU per gallon, and a minimum of 3.5 gallons for a shower = 14595 BTU for a short high-efficiency shower.
Most energy efficiency sites estimate standby heat loss for natural gas water heaters in the $110 per year range - and that is counting ALL of the "lost heat" as a total loss - ie - heater not within conditioned space. With the water heater in my occupied basement my actual "lost heat" is less than half that
You're right. IDK how many gallons of hot water I use. But I do know that my gas bill is under $20 a month in summer. Others here have reported similar.
There's really no way to compare until one installs a
To compare, I agree. But given that my gas bill is under $20 a month in summer, when it's just the water heater and some outdoor grilling, I know I can't save $1000 a year, it's mathematically impossible, because my whole gas bill for the WH is less than $240.
when still working
So what? It's not necessary to know how much water we use. My less than $20 gas bill tells me all that I need to know. Pretty dumb point anyway, with a few exceptions, most people use very little hot water at work. For example, I've never taken a shower at work, run my dishwasher or clothes washer there, etc. Just used it to wash my hands, that's it.
It would help if you gave us some actual numbers, like the breakdown on your gas bill, how much per therm you're paying, etc.
Not necessarily true. The efficiencies while running can be different. I would think that the efficiency of the best tankless is going to be better than the efficiency of the worst tank type. It's just that from what I see, it's not enough difference to make it worthwhile
Only if you make the faulty assumption that 100% of the heat energy of the gas goes into the water.
gallon (US ) of water weighe 8.34 lbs, do it tales
My under $20 total gas bill in summer is consistent with that.
You surprise me. You should have at *least* one year supply of everything to keep you comfortable, fed, watered and safe, Brother Young. Where are your generators and batteries? ;-)
I was looking for a little heater just for a bathroom sink. Tankless electric would require special wiring, a tank heater would work on a standard 120V-15A outlet.
Your numbers are nothing like mine. People who still work are not home all day so use little hot water at home. When I worked I'd often shower, shave, and brush my teeth at work plus with my dirty work I'd wash my hands countless times a day... we had very well appointed locker rooms with terriffic high pressure showers and lots of flufy towels. If you're heating your home with gas and have such low bills you must live in the south and/or live in a shoebox with the thermostat set at 60ºF and your price for gas must be dirt cheap, and you must be using natural gas which costs a lot less than propane. You probably shower once a week and it's a navy water hours shower; wet quickly with cold, turn water off, soap up, and a quick cold rinse... you use no more than 1 gallon of water total. In any case the Rinnai web site claims up to a 40% energy saving which I think is conservative.
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"Designed for efficiency: Rinnai?s tankless technology features copper heat exchangers to provide maximum efficiency and uses up to 40 percent less energy* than a traditional tank. Save energy: By operating only when hot water is needed, and no storage tank to heat and reheat water, our tankless technology helps save on energy and utility costs. The use of an electronic ignition means no standing pilot light that constantly uses energy. Replace parts, not systems: Every part of a Rinnai Tankless Water Heater is replaceable. Components can be easily exchanged, if needed, versus replacing the entire system." Many people are using tankless on demand because the savings are substantial. My propane company says it's used in all new construction and so many people are changing over they had to hire more people to satisfy demand. When I changed over my tank type water heater was working fine only I tired of large propane bills. I also added the ventless gas heater and run it along with my furnace, it cuts my propane use even further because no heat is lost up a chimney, they are 99% efficient... with the ventless I'm able to turn my furnace on a month later in the fall and turn it off a month sooner in spring, so the ventless turned out to be a great investment... I originally bought it so I'd have heat in case of a power outage in winter, but now I leave it on all winter with it's thermostate set low, by keeping my basement warm it keeps my furnace from firing up as often, and naturally a warm basement heats the entire house too, in winter I leave the basement door open and open a floor vent at the other end of the house. The floor vent was already there because the last people heated with wood, their water jacketed wood stove is still in the basement but no longer hooked up to water or electric circulators for the baseboard heating and it made domestic hot water during winter, in warm weather there was an electric tank water heater, actually two, one was for extra starage from the furnace... they really had the oil fired furnace in case the wood fire went out. It's a very good commercial quality furnace but when the tankless on demand unit was installed I had the plumber remove all the rube goldberg crap, so now it just heats the house in winter but it's turned off during warm weather... when I moved here I had the propane company remove the oil burner and convert the furnace to propane, works very well, and no oil stink or tuneups/cleanings. I would never go back to filthy oil. I've met many of my neighbors who won't use their AC because it would eat into their restaurant and wine budget... they'd rather sleep in their basement during summer than give up eating out 3-4 times a week and guzzle $40 bottles of wine. People who rationalize all kinds of harebrained excuses to convince themselves not to replace their kaput tank type water heater with a tankless on demand water heater are really just crying the sour grapes opera... has not a whit to do with their budget, it simply hasn't more priority than dining out, guzzling pricey wine, or some such ostentatious spectacle they can flaunt. Maybe I can flaunt my Rinnai by finding some buxom 18 year old gal to shower with. hehe
Just because you're home, you use significant hot water all day long? My house there is high usage AM, then usage at night again. Usage during the day of any significance would typically be clothes washing, dishwashing, etc, ie usage that's going to occur anyway, whether its day or night. I don't think most people take extra showers just because they are home during the day.
Hard to imagine hand washing can use much hot water.
. we had very well appointed
That would be the first time a manufacturer used c "Gas tankless water heaters, which use high-powered burners to quickly heat water as it runs through a heat exchanger, were 22 percent more energy eff icient on average than the gas-fired storage-tank models in our tests. That translates into a savings of around $70 to $80 per year, based on 2008 nat ional energy costs."
Note the savings of $70 to $80 per year, not per month. That number makes sense to me.
How about this, where an actual study of homes using both was made:
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eaters-waste-money
"The researchers concluded that most tankless water heaters will fall apart from old age before they save enough energy to justify their high cost"
They found that best case the payback for a tankless was 21 years, worst case it was 71 years.
Per the above math, it's not going to happen when my tank type is $20 a month.
My propane company says it's used in all new
For the first time you've used the word PROPANE. The OP clearly stated that hers was natural gas. Which gets back to my request for more information. You just say you're saving $80 a month, nothing else. Now we find out you have propane, she has natural gas. Might want to re-think the comment that it's a no brainer to switch to tankless.
When I changed over my tank type water
Not sure that you're saving much by burning gas in one appliance instead of another. If you can use the ventless to only heat part of the house, I can see that saving money.
but now I leave it on all winter with it's thermostate set
Not sure what's going on there, but if you're saying you heat an unused basement to warm the upstairs, I think that's a losing proposition for sure.
in
My bill is $20 a month with a tank type. Do the math. And supply us with some real numbers, eg what your gas usage is, what the cost per therm is, what that tankless cost to install.
Batteries were less of an issue. Carbon zinc cells I had on hand went dead promptly. Some alkalines worked nicely. Didn't want to run a genrator, a bit noisy and the trailers are close together. I did run my generator for about an hour, the third or fourth day. Hoping the folks around me would understand. The power did come back the next day.
you can share power with the neighbors, who wouldnt complain about noise since they will have power too
One friend of mine did exactly that. His neighbor knew some about electricity, and was able to run cords to a couple different houses.
My two neighbors, one "had a generator coming from the fire hall" and planned to run a space heater in the living room. I offered to show him how to wire it into the furnace, he declined. Other neighbor had a kerosene heater and was warm enough. The elderly lady across the street was wrapped in blankets with the stove burners on, worrying about monoxide. She also declined.
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