OT Political

Though I've been keeping my political remarks to a minimum ...here is the exact quote from Gingrich. He made this yesterday on the 75th anniversary of Pearl Harbor:

"75 years ago the Japanese displayed professional brilliance and technological power launching surprises from Hawaii to the Philippines."

One would think the day would have been a good one to praise America but instead he chose to praise the enemy.

As a veteran who has come from a family of veterans I am beyond sickened at such a traitorous and disgusting remark. The above quote was a "stand alone" quote and was not been taken out of context.

Had the statement been part of of a broader analysis it might have been a different issue but it's false no matter how one looks at it. The US military knew Japan was going to attack, it was generally thought that it would be more likely to occur in the Philippines. As to the "brilliance" most of the US fleet was out to sea and from a purely tactical move on the part of Japan, probably could not have been a worse day.

It's going to be very difficult for Trump's team to sink below this level, but Trump is pretty smart and I'm sure things will get even worse. Perhaps Gingrich can praise the "911" attackers next.

Reply to
philo
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The Japanese did display tactical brilliance and technological superiority in their attack on Pearl Harbor.

It has been 75 years since the event, the Japanese are now staunch allies and we as a nation need to be continually reminded just how imperative it is that we remain prepared and vigilant.

For Gingrich to remind us there are very bright and capable adversaries out there can effectively help serve the purpose of keeping the USA and the world on it's toes.

Just what good is the study of history if we ignore the lessons and refuse to learn from it; all in the name of faux patriotism?

Reply to
Stormin' Norman

Like I said , had this been part of a long analysis that would have been one thing but this was a stand alone statement he made yesterday on Twitter. In no place did he praise America.

Also, as I stated there was no brilliance on the part of Japan. The fleet was out to sea , so only a tiny handful of ships were sunk. Most were re-floated quite rapidly.

Not a brilliant move by the Japanese and of all days a bad one for Gingrich to praise the (then) enemy.

Reply to
philo

There was nothing worthy of national praise for America in the attack on Pearl. There were numerous acts of individual heroism which have been acknowledged many times over the years.

The USA screwed the pooch during the lead up to and on the day of 7 December 1941.

No brilliance? Absurd. The Japanese didn't completely incapacitate the Pacific fleet and yes, they could have sent in another wave to destroy the fuel oil depot and the submarine pens, but in general their attack was brilliantly executed and the USA was caught with our pants down, sitting on the pot, taking a dump.

The USA went after Japan with strategic embargoes and trade sanctions prior to the attack, but we were arrogant and believed the Japanese were an inferior race and could never seriously challenge the us militarily. We exhibited tremendous hubris and we had our heads handed to us because we didn't prepare for the possibility of a Japanese response to our actions.

Reply to
Stormin' Norman

On 12/08/2016 8:55 AM, philo wrote: ...

Newt is no dummy. He undoubtedly had an end point to be made; taking one sentence out of any context whatsoever is just doing so and looking to take offense just for the pleasure of doing so.

It does go to illustrate that such social media isn't the place for trying to make any point on anything of importance; there isn't space nor time. I pay no attention to any of it from anybody and we'd be far better off without it entirely imo.

Reply to
dpb

Per philo:

Do you take issue with the accuracy of the statement?

Reply to
(PeteCresswell)

Absurd.

That was /exactly/ what FDR needed to get the US into WW-II Prior to the attack, though he supported England with supplies and $$$ he needed such an attract to justify America's involvement militarily.

The Japanese were the ones who made a huge mis-judgment because they though the US would not have the stomach for a war. There was no brilliance on the part of the Japanese and the attack had (virtually) no effect on America's military strength.

That said, had Gingrich wanted to praise the Japanese, this was the worst possible way to have done so.

Reply to
philo

It's not true that it was standalone. It was immediately preceded by this tweet:

?December 7 is a good day to remember that the world is dangerous a nd shattering surprise is possible even when we have been warned,?

Apparently it was part of a somewhat broader analysis.

How is it false? It was an attack that showed technological power and professional brilliance. They succeeded in delivering a major blow to the US Pacific Fleet, the list of ships sunk, aircraft destroyed, is impressive. And they did it with very minimal losses.

The US

I don't think that's true. There was increasing tension and the possibility of something happening was there, but no one knew for sure anything was coming.

it was generally thought that

You're never going to have a perfect strike, the US carriers being out to sea was a lucky thing for the US. But overall, it was a stunning military engagement. The Japanese inflicted huge damage on us, with very minimal losses to themselves. That is a major success in any battle.

I would agree that what Newt said wasn't appropriate on Pearl Harbor Day, especially since he didn't at least precede it with comments about the vets. I lost most respect for Newt when he became a Trumpet.

Reply to
trader_4

You purposely chose to misread what I wrote.

I did NOT take Gingrich's quote out of context. That was the sum total of his statement.

No matter how you take it, Pearl Harbor day was a bad day to praise the Japanese attack. Gingrich made no comment anywhere in praise of American values.

Gingrich is the biggest gutless wonder I've yet seen in Trump's cast of characters. As a veteran I find "Armchair Generals" quite pukeable.

Reply to
philo

Per philo:

I liked the quote in "Tora! Tora! Tora" attributed to admiral Yamamoto: "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve"

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Reply to
(PeteCresswell)

We were watching a documentary a couple days ago on what happened in our government the months prior to the the attack, and part of the problem was that the flow of secret intelligence was horrific between those who received intelligence and those who were in charge. One report said part of the process was for a courier to hand deliver intel to military heads and those officers were only allowed to read the intel for a specific amount of time and then had to hand it back to the courier. Those who read the info weren't allowed to take notes, or make copies of the intel, either.

This documentary also showed how bits and pieces of unrelated intel were just filed away in cabinets and some of it was never viewed again until the people researching for this current documentary found the declassified information, and put it together with other intel for analysis.

There was information that the Japanese had a spy on Hawaii and that Japan had their spy start reporting harbor activity twice a week vs. once a week. US powers that be knew there was a spy, but the information of increased surveillance never reached the right people who could have prepared ahead of time for such an attack.

The government officials at the time were so paranoid that the Japanese MIGHT find out what the US actually knew that they ended up not allowing a system where analysts had access to ALL the intel so they could interpret it and come to the conclusion that Japan was actually

*prepping* to attack Hawaii. Our government knew Japan was interested, but didn't believe they had enough solid info to even tell the general in charge at the time there was an eminent threat.
Reply to
Muggles

IDK what your definition of "re-floated means", but if it means they were repaired and returned to service, some did get returned within months, but others not until 1943, 1944.

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However you count them, the attack was a major Japanese victory. In addition to those 16 ships, they destroyed 188 aircraft, while incurring minimal losses themselves.

I don't think Newt was implying that it was an overall brilliant move by the Japanese. Taken in context with his tweet immediately before, he was clearly warning that the world is not a safe place and we should remember the lessons of Pearl Harbor.

Reply to
trader_4

My biggest issue is Gingrich lauding the Japanese on Pear Harbor day and not making a statement anywhere praising American values. That is something which cannot be debated. Anyone can view his disgusting remarks on Twitter.

Out of the thousands of replies he got, I saw nothing but utter disgust from his followers.

As to the accuracy of his statement ...that can be debated but it is not at all true. If you care to read the history of WW-II it was assumed the Japanese were going to attack ...somewhere....sometime.

From a purely tactical point , it was a blunder on the part of the Japanese because the US fleet was mostly all out to sea.

FDR knew that the only way he could justify the US getting into the war was by such an attack. Since the fleet was not there when the Japanese arrived, it was almost as if he knew for sure it was going to happen.

Reply to
philo

There was a map found in recent research that had been filed away that showed the exact positions of ships in the harbor sent to the Japanese by a spy on Oahu. They knew ahead of time about where all the ships were docked, and they also had done research about how they could use a new technology to drop surface skimming torpedoes in the bay so they could do more damage to the ships docked there.

The problem was all the intel wasn't shared or even located in one central building where analysts could even interpret the information.

I don't think the US will ever make that same mistake again.

Reply to
Muggles

No it wasn't he made two Tweets. Twitter is not the place to posit a broad analysis. He made no praise anywhere of American values.

It was not a stunning victory by any means. A minute portion of the fleet was sunk in port. All but one ship was put back in commission a quick order.

Amen.

I never had any respect for that do-nothing gas bag. He reminds me of Hubert Humphrey

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Reply to
philo

Bottom line is that the US knew the Japanese were going to attack. Hardly a brilliant move on the part of the Japanese.

My father was among the first of our troops to enter Nagasaki after the war. It did not seem to work out so well for them.

Had Japan been brilliant they would have stayed the f*ck out.

Reply to
philo

I did not see the movie but it was playing in Germany when I was stationed there in 1970.

Anyway is that is what Yamamoto said he was damn right.

Reply to
philo

"75 years ago the Japanese displayed professional brilliance and technological power launching surprises from Hawaii to the Philippines."

The only thing I can say about these words is they're probably technically true about what the Japanese actually did from a military strategy point of view. They gathered intel for months and worked out a plan of attack that succeeded just as they planned. They also figured out a way to use torpedoes in the shallow waters where the ships were docked. Previously, torpedoes couldn't be used in that environment, but they obtained info where torpedoes were actually used to do that, so they adapted their own torpedoes so they would skim the water for a more effective result.

From a military perspective, the statement is true. But, from a civilian perspective it's difficult to grant the Japanese any sort of praise at all because of the horrific deed they accomplished.

The US was a bit naive to think Japan wouldn't follow through, and we weren't prepared even to the point of allowing gathered intel to be housed together so analysts could see the whole picture ahead of time. We could have been ready.

For the US, we learned a horrible lesson.

Reply to
Muggles

It's not true that it was standalone. It was immediately preceded by this tweet:

?December 7 is a good day to remember that the world is dangerous a nd shattering surprise is possible even when we have been warned,?

Do try to at least start with the correct facts. What preceded it shows that Newt was warning us to remember the lessons of Pearl Harbor.

Is praising American values now required in every tweet?

Maybe if you started with their full quotes, in context, you wouldn't get sick as much?

Reply to
trader_4

More rewriting of history.

I think if you tke Newt's comments in context, he was talking about the Pearl Harbor attack, it's execution, the damage inflicted, versus the minimal losses to the Japanese. He clearly wasn't commenting that attacking the USA and expecting to prevail in the long run was brilliant.

Reply to
trader_4

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