OT "No Ethanol"

[RedAlt5]

For those of us who try to use "no ethanol" gas for our small motor engines , we're being lied to and ripped off. At a visit to a small motor repair s hop I was told that there is no such thing, it just has less than 10% ethan ol. I researched and found that 5% or more is labeled "ethanol included" b ut less than 5% doesn't have to be noted. So at the next stop at a gas stat ion with a "no ethanol" pump I asked if it was true. The manager showed me the invoice of his last gas delivery. It showed "4.97% alcohol" in the ga s to the "no ethanol" tank. So the dealers interpretation of "no", and tha t alcohol & ethanol are different, is a total farce!

[philoÂÂ]

Yep.

When I first heard about it, it seemed like a great idea but it's not.

For work, my van was rated E85 so I thought, what the heck and I filled it up with E85. By the second tankful the thing ran terribly and stalled a lot. I talked to the dealership and they told me that no matter what the specs on my van say...do NOT use that E85 stuff.

The van did work OK on E20 but whatever the savings on fuel were negated by worse MPG.

After that I just used "standard" gas which still has some ethanol in it.

When I found out how much energy is used to produce it I thought the whole idea absurd.

Corn should be grown for eating and not for fuel.

[Stormin Mormon]

our small motor engines, we're being lied to and ripped off. At a visit to a small motor repair shop I was told that there is no such thing, it just has less than 10% ethanol. I researched and found that 5% or more is labeled "ethanol included" but less than

5% doesn't have to be noted. So at the next stop at a gas station with a "no ethanol" pump I asked if it was true. The manager showed me the invoice of his last gas delivery. It showed "4.97% alcohol" in the gas to the "no ethanol" tank. So the dealers interpretation of "no", and that alcohol & ethanol are different, is a total farce!

Wonder if there is some way for the commoner to test? Take a quart, and see how many drops of water before one settles to the bottom? Some simple thing like that? DAGS:

Water mix, and shows different cloudy level.

Ethanol removal:

(Be nice if this works....)

[gfretwell]

to be noted. So at the next stop at a gas station with a "no ethanol" pump I asked if it was true. The manager showed me the invoice of his last gas delivery. It showed "4.97% alcohol" in the gas to the "no ethanol" tank. So the dealers interpretation of "no", and that alcohol & ethanol are different, is a total farce!

I rented a Suburban in South Dakota that was flex fuel. I was getting a fairly dismal 16-17 MPG but tolerable on E-10. For grins I tried a tank full of E-85. This truck had the current gas mileage on the dash computer. It was like someone flipped a switch when that E-85 worked its way up to the injectors. The mileage dropped to 13-14 before I got 2 miles down the road. When I put another tank of E-10 in, the 16-17 was back.

My experience with E-10 is that as long as you buy it and burn it right away, it works fine but make sure you do not leave any in the tank if you are putting your equipment away for a couple months and do not keep that can of gas laying around too long. Fortunately for me I have a boat that we use all year long so I keep my gas moving. The problem is small 2 stroke equipment. I try not to mix up any more gas than I will be using right away and I dump the rest in the car, oil and all.

[RobertMacy]

I heard that during WWII the mustang fighters [P-51] were outfitted with small spray of water droplets into the cylinders. The steam generated extra boost and when activate, the pilot just 'took off' and left standing anyone around. Two downsides were tended to blow the rings [well, duh!] and if you didn't 'purge' your engine out afterward by running a decent amount of time, the moisture vapor got deposited everywhere and 'rotted' the engine out.

So, that means it's ok to use that alcohol fuel, but remember to purge your engine with pure fuel before you shut it off.

uh, and just HOW do we do that? Hey, I'm the idea man. YOU tie the bell on the cat's neck!

[gfretwell]

Water injection systems were pretty popular as a performance booster in the 50s and 60s. It works in 2 ways. #1 the water mist cools the charge and gets more bang in each gulp #2 the released steam increases the amount of gas produced in the cylinder.

The trick is getting just the right amount in there. Too much will put out the fire.

I never heard of anyone purging the system but if the water injector was off for a few revolutions, the water would be gone. I don't remember if they told you to turn off the injector before you turned off the engine.

[Scott Lurndal]

Note that the 707 and DC-8 (and military derivitives) used water injection to increase jet engine thrust (and increased HC emissions). The B-52 would burn

5 tons of water (mixed with methanol) on takeoff with the old PW J-57's.

[Stormin Mormon]

I've checked a couple web sites, some say ethanol is energy neutral "why bother, then?" and others say it's a loss. My theory is loss, such as loss of farm land, and farmer time.

[bob haller]

It can be a energy positive by creating ethanol from things other than corn, like grass, waste vegetable matter etc.

Years ago I had a bunch of trees trimmed and had them chipped. they were left in a big pile......

fermented creating alcohol. my knowledgable neighbor warned me to spread them out or they could catch on fire....

there are commercial operators trying to get this tech to work dependaby

another source is running coal fired power stations exhaust thru big tubes filled with water and algea, which grows great from the CO2 in the exhaust. This cuts CO2 emmisions by 1/2 and the algea is fermented into ethanol

[gfretwell]

The problem is alcohol comes from sugar or starch that gets converted to sugar, That is why it makes such good food (lots of easy energy) There is not a lot in grass, sticks or whatever. There are only a few animals who have figured out how to turn that into fuel and it is not an easy process for them. (Always a 2 stage process)

Fossil fuel;s will have to get very expensive to make cellulose cost effective.

[Shadow]

Most of our cars here in Brazil are a gasoline/ethanol mix. You can mix the fuels in the tank and the electronics takes care of the timing etc. Ethanol is much cheaper than gasoline, if you live near the distilleries , like I do. Gasoline is probably cheaper in the big urban centers. All our ethanol is from sugar cane. Maize (corn) and wood are far too expensive to work with. HTH []'s

[RedAlt5]

Loss comes to small motor equipment also. It ruins rubber hoses and soft me tal. For example, I have a ATV that had a ruined carburetor because of eth anol in the fuel. It could not be fixed because of the ruined metal around the needle valve where the fuel flows into the carb. A new carb from the d ealer is $260, all because of the ethanol. And I was by far not the 1st on e to experience that problem.

[philoÂÂ]

Even if it is energy neutral, it's pointless.

[philoÂÂ]

The US has huge landfills. There are some countries that burn their wast to produce energy rather than bury it. Yes, it could cause air pollution but if it was filtered the way you mentioned the air could be kept pretty clean.

[Meanie]

Don't feel bad. Michigan doesn't even require labels but does require filling stations stay 10% or under. I originally thought they did and thus, frequented the same stations assuming they contained no ethanol. When I was told there wasn't a law requiring labels, I searched to discover they were right. I then walked into one of my favorite filling stations (who don't use labels) and asked how much ethanol is in their tanks. The guy was honest and said 10%. I also learned all stations use it now, therefore, there's nothing we can do, unless we use another method of transportation which doesn't require fuel.

[gfretwell]

We have a waste to energy plant here but sorting the trash and maintaining the scrubbers and such make it pretty expensive.

I think they actually burn the paper and plastic from the recycle stream mostly but they get in trouble when they say it out loud. It does make more sense than trucking it 1000 miles or more to a real recycling facility.

[clare]

At Waterloo Regional Landfill, we have several large Cat generators running on Methane "landfill gas" - enough power to light a small town. The old Kitchener dump provided gas for a large concrete pipe manufacturer.

[clare]

Just across the border in Ontario, all Shell premium fuel is 0% ethanol. We can safely use it in aircraft with Mogas STC - which does NOT allow ethanol in the fuel.

[RedAlt5]

Scrubbers are also removing sulfur from the air so fertilizer companies are adding it to their bags of the mix. They say agriculture needs it but it's no longer free from the air.

[Stormin Mormon]

Trust the government to make something that works.... not work.