OT: More than just VW cars are spewing excess pollution

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http://www.ibtimes.com/diesel-car-scandal-update-honda-mazda-mercedes-benz-mitsubishi-emit-more-emissions-2135107
"Some Mercedes-Benz models released about five times more pollution than the latest diesel emission limits. Some Honda diesel models released between 2.6 and six times the allowable levels, according to data obtained by the Guardian.
The Mazda and Mitsubishi models tested had lower emissions. Mazda's tested diesel cars had between 1.6 and 3.6 times test levels of the EU's lab-based tests, and the Mitsubishi models tested had between 1.5 and 3.4 times the emissions tested in the lab."
This just gets more interesting. It's starting to look like the EPA with an $8 bil budget, had no actual on the road testing to see what cars were actually doing? I can understand why they would rely primarily on stationary, simulated testing, but you would think that there would be at least some spot checking to see what cars be driven on the highway are actually doing and that the dyno tests were consistent and valid. The VW thing was uncovered by some non-profit environmental group or similar. But then this is govt we're dealing with here.
On another angle, anyone see the CEO of VW America testifying before Congress? He told them management didn't know anything, it was all done by 3 software engineers who had been suspended. Turns out the 3 suspended are high level execs, one headed engine development, another was head of R/D, etc. This is a classic example of how not to handle a crisis. Really amazing.
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On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 07:02:09 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

Shocking, diesels are smoking air polluters. Whodathunkit. ;-)
I guess we should have been suspicious when they said they had them cleaned up.
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On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 07:02:09 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

We all know it is Bush's fault. Or is it the fault of global warming?
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Oren posted for all of us...

From what I understand cockroaches will survive atomic blasts.
Don't know about termites, how are they necessary? To keep pest control people in business?
My opinion of global warming is that A/C was invented. It takes all the heat inside a structure and moves it outside. Refrigerant has nothing to do with it. Californication just passed laws to make utility co's put up wind and solar and some other changes I can't remember. The elec rates will shoot upward and so will our taxes because we finance all this nonsense. Remember Solyndra? And the Spanish wind turbine manufacturer? (Olestra or something like that)
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Tekkie

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It may be capable of killing cockroaches, but I'm sure the ones in D.C. have a natural immunity that will protect them.
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wrote:

The lawyers will be the last to go.
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wait, are you saying that the private sector doesn't do it better...now who can we trust to protect us
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On 10/10/2015 02:11 PM, Malcom Mal Reynolds wrote:

Don't worry, the shit BigAg and BigChem sprays on your food is *totally* safe.
In USDA we trust!
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On 10/10/2015 10:02 AM, trader_4 wrote:

There is a revolving door between industries and the government entities that are supposed to be regulating them that minimizes the chance of *effective* regulation. Does a former employee in some industry want to make things too difficult for his former colleagues with whom he may want a better job again in the future?
Perce
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Some cut.

diesels make up about half the cars in Europe. They make up under 3% of cars in th U.S. Maybe our friends in the EPA are overzealous. You'll be glad to know the EPA has amphibious assault ships according to the Washington Times. http://alturl.com/qm957
More cut.
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On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 07:02:09 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

If they were the HEADS of their areas there is no way they did this without lower level people also knowing what was going on.
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trader_4 wrote:

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On Saturday, October 10, 2015 at 8:44:29 PM UTC-4, Tony Hwang wrote:

een 2.6 and six times the allowable levels, according to data obtained by t he Guardian.

ased tests, and the Mitsubishi models tested had between 1.5 and 3.4 times the emissions tested in the lab."

MAKE THEM BUY BACK EVERY VEHICLE FOR THE ORIGINAL PURCHASE PRICE.THEN EITHE R PROVE THEY ARE FIXED OR SEND THEM OFF TO THE CRUSHER. WITH BIG FINE, AND 5 YEARS IN PRISON FOR THE EXECS INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT OF EACH COMPANY.
make the penalties so terrible no one will ever do this again.....
my guess, a mere software upgrade wouldnt fix them.........
if thereb even is a fix it will hurt driveability, hurt gas mileage, and fo r most owners they wouldnt want their vehicles fixed
if there had been a easy cheap workable fix carmakers bwould of done it fro m the beginning
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bob haller wrote:

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On 10/10/2015 08:03 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:

So far there does not seem to be any great impact on the private party sales of VW diesels.
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On 10/10/2015 9:42 PM, rbowman wrote:

I haven't seen a definitive assessment of that, either way. I've seen some claims that blue book values of diesels are down compared to "pre-fiasco" prices. And, all sorts of doom-n-gloom predictions as to the costs/consequences for owners of the affected vehicles.
But, I think still too early to come to any lasting conclusions. Hard to imagine all those vehicles "suddenly" becoming "so much useless tin"; their owners will simply NOT sell them if their valuations drop too low.
The real fallout will come from the *consequences* of a "fix". Owners may end up with the performance of a gasoline powered car having paid for a diesel. Or, even something worse. I suspect VW will be looking to slide out from under this "on the cheap" so figure that will come at those buyers' "expense" (i.e., they'll get less than they "paid for")
Look to Europe to be VW's Waterloo. Too many jurisdictions each wanting a bite of that pie. And, nothing incentivizing those folks from putting it behind them, quickly!
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On Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 5:30:52 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:

This brings up another interesting question. It seems certain that VW will have to issue some kind of compensation to "owners". But which owners? The owner that bought it 4 years ago and sold it after 2 years? The owner that bought it from him, but sold it 3 months ago, before the problem was known, the owners after the problem was known, or the owner that owns the car when they finally issue the compensation? It would seem the ones entitled to compensation are the owners at the time it was made public, but who knows...

Look to Europe to be VW's Waterloo. Too many jurisdictions

Not so sure about that, especially given the move to the EU arrangement.
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Tony Hwang posted for all of us...

IDK there is always a market for cheap cars. I don't believe the people that buy these cars would car about the pedigree.
There will be some deal where the gov't makes out well and the owners not so well. See if the brand can take the hit.
I heard this morning that Mercedes has the same problem. They didn't want their customers to get involved with the urea aspect so they diddled it.
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On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 23:08:55 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster

Real world testing is NOT, as far as I know, part of the requirement for certification. So designing and building a vehicle that performs on the dyno certification testing is all that's required as long as the same software used on the dyno is what is also used in the real world. A company that "did more" because out in the real world some limit was exceeded which was not exceeded on the dyno would be putting themselves at a competitive disadvantage, assuming the "doing more" meant worse mpg or driivability.
The same would be true of the crash testing. Teh gvt mandates specific crash tests. If a company passes those tests but realized that they could do "Even more" they are under no legal obligation to do so. And if that "doing more" makes the vehicle heavier with lower MPG they may well be working at cross purposes.
I'm not saying they can't "do more", only that they are not required to and should not be blamed if they don't.
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On Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 4:19:18 PM UTC-4, Ashton Crusher wrote:

ween 2.6 and six times the allowable levels, according to data obtained by the Guardian.

based tests, and the Mitsubishi models tested had between 1.5 and 3.4 times the emissions tested in the lab."

d it has been a calculated risk that no one would do real world testing. I also assume that gasoline fueled vehicles have been programmed the same way . I guess all the manufacturers never considered that some NGO full of clou d huggers would discover the deception and start howling. Get ready for a r esurgence of bicycles and donkey carts. ^_^

As far at meeting the govt standards, you're probably right, although we don't know what the actual law says. But the bigger problem would appear to be the EPA. If those cars from various manufacturers were tested correctly on the road per that article, then there's only a couple of possibilities. One thing that wasn't stated was whether these cars from manufacturers other than VW were tested on a dyno setup too and what that showed or would have showed.
The possibilities would be:
1 - The cars also fail the dyno test and the emissions performance there is similar to what is going on under actual driving conditions, ie the dyno certification test is a valid one and the cars are later failing for whatever reasons.
2 - The cars pass the dyno test, but spew out 2 to 6 times the legal pollution on the roads. In which case the EPA test protocol that they established and use is a total joke.
But above all it's stunning that the EPA from all indications so far, is clueless. You would think that they would be very interested in monitoring a sample of the cars out there to make sure of two things. One is that their dyno certification process is a valid one and two, that cars on the road actually perform to within the standards for X years. You would think they would be very interested in the actual on the road emissions from these cars at 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, 15 years.... It would be pretty stupid to be jacking the emissions standa rds ever higher, while the millions of cars out there are spewing 5x what they are supposed to, either when brand new or even when they are 5 years old. These cars in the article, if putting out 5X, probably aren't even meeting the requirements from 20 years ago.
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