OT: Leading by example

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Caesar Romano wrote:

Libertarians are kinda like the Celtic tribes hired by the English kings of old to fight their wars. Loyal, fierce as hell, and absolutely fearless.
You just wouldn't want them to actually, you know, RUN things.
The "independent" (i.e. Libertarian) voter is actually the most dependent of all. He gets to choose between, as you say, two evils. He has no say in the platform, policies, or promises of any candidate or party. Further, after the election, he has no influence with the office holder.
People get involved in politics for one of three reasons: power, pride, or profit. If you worked for a city council candidate and he saw you knocking on doors and putting up signs, you have power! After the election, the pot-hole in front of your house gets fixed first.
Really, the most effective thing that can be done is to pick the major party that's closest to your views and work from within. Raise money, do the leg work, recruit candidates (or be one yourself), hold party office, be a convention delegate, and so on.
As a practical example, the last credible third-party candidate for president was Teddy Roosevelt on the "Bull Moose" party ticket. He split the Republican vote, allowing Woodrow Wilson to become president (which precipitated WWI, the United Nations, and all manner of assorted nastiness).
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HeyBub wrote:

we have a 1.5 party system at this point. More alike than they are different, and a pox on both their houses. They both think my money belongs to them, and they know how to spend it better than I do. If I was benign dictator of the universe, party affiliations would not be allowed on the ballot, and power in congress would not be parceled out on party lines. People could still have parties if they wanted, the law would just take no notice of it. Primaries would merely be to pick the top 2-3 candidates for whatever office, to keep the ballot uncluttered for the real election. Voters would actually have to learn about what the candidate thinks.
I realize it will never happen, of course. I'm not delusional. It'd be nice if they at least got rid of the 'straight party ticket' option, so people actually have to read the entire ballot.
--
aem sends...

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I don't see it that way at all. There is more difference between the two parties now than there ever has been.

So you're not in favor of the freedom of association?

That's not useful, IMO.
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it's really not much more valid as a psychoanalytical tool than rorschach blots
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What *are* you babbling about?
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http://www.answers.com/topic/free-association
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Oh, you were just babbling to hear yourself babble. Carry on.
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snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

Maybe in their soundbites- not in how they run the store. I've worked for the feds 30 years, and the 'stupid' tap was about as wide open no matter who is in power. When they occasionally get something right, it is by accident.

should enshrine such associations in statute, and give them power to ensure no other association ever gets power. The man or woman should be the one running for office, not the damn party.
--
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Baloney! Do you think the R's would have forced anyone to buy something they don't want?

The parties only have the power people give them. I repeat...
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aemeijers wrote:

When you get to Washington, it matters little whether you're conservative or liberal. What counts most is what side of the aisle you sit on.
My state still has a smattering of "conservative" Democrats. Yet each, on his very first vote in the House of Representatives, will vote to elect Nancy Pelosi as Speaker. This one vote determines committee chairs and committee membership, and those, in turn, determine which bills even come up for a vote.
This is also the easiest division for the members. C. Northcott Parkinson put it best when he said: "When a member of your party says something on the floor, you shout 'Hear! Hear!'. When the opposition says something, you shout 'Shame! Shame!' "
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HeyBub wrote:

senate. There shouldn't be a damn aisle in the first place. Seat them and assign committee memberships based on alpha order or random drawing, or a full-house or full-senate vote, or some system that would give everyone a shot. The party heads in each chamber have WAY too much power.
Like I said, I know it will never happen, because the duopoly in charge likes being in charge. Like the mafia families in the old days, or the Five Families in old Hawaii, or the old robber baron groups of pretend competitors.
--
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Our founding fathers did not anticipate political parties. They were thinking in terms of honest, independent men coming together to do what's best for the country. Why they thought that, after their experiences with the Continental Congresses and their own convention, is a mystery to me. But they did.
But political parties formed almost immediately, for the reasons that HeyBub has been discussing. Note that these are the same reasons street gangs form.
-- Doug
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Nonsense. Political parties have been part of the landscape from day one.

Because there are like minded people.
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Nonsense yourself. The Federal government began operating on March 4, 1789. The Federalist party was formed in 1792, largely led by Alexander Hamilton. The Democratic-Republican party was formed the same year, largely led by Jefferson and Madison. They spread to the state level by 1794-5.
Adams was the first president with a party affiliation (Federalist). Washington was an independent.
The clearest example of the drafters of the constitution not anticipating parties lies in the process for selecting the vice president. They specified that the presidential candidate with the second largest number of votes would be vice president. This led to the disastrous election of 1800 and the 12th amendment, which established the current system.

And because they have more power together than as individuals.
-- Doug
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Heh. You assume the average American can actually read. Add in "show up to the polling place" and actually "read what is posted" in the voting booth. Ain't gonna happen. Most people belong to either the Illiterati, the Ignoranti, or the Moroni, the three lost tribes. Have you really not heard of this? It's certainly not new, although it certainly sucks. :(
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-snip-

First the candidate would have to think.

I'm with you all the way. If I happen to be voting for a candidate from one of the 1.5 major parties & they are endorsed by another party I vote for them on that line. So my ballots are usually a mish-mash of Liberal, Right to life, Conservative, Family Values Party, Independence, etc.
Jim
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aemeijers wrote:

Heh!
In my county a voter has to decide (depending on the election) * National offices * County judge and commissioner * Justice of the Peace * Constable * About twenty Courts of Domestic Relations * About six Probate Courts * About thirty County Courts at Law * State Supreme Court and State Court of Criminal Appeals * School board * Mayor and city council * Proposed Constitutional Amendments and so on
There are at least 300 names on the ballot. To vote for the "individual," a voter would have to devote an amazing amount of time reading literature, attending rallies, and so on, to be able to cast the most intelligent vote for all offices.
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HeyBub wrote:

Which is their duty, of course. The lazy would simply not bother to vote. But even picking names by random chance would be better than voting based on slick junkmail and soundbites.
--
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aemeijers wrote:

Having been involved in politics, I can tell you it doesn't work that way. Since voting is free, most voters want to get their money's worth by marking SOMETHING for every position. This mindset is aided by public service screeching "If you don't vote, you're no better than a retarded weasel!"
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On 8/4/2010 9:48 PM aemeijers spake thus:

Meaning, of course, Meg "Moneybags" Whitman.
After her recent disastrous remarks on a SoCal radio talk show, conservative Repulsivecrats are saying they're going to follow her example and not vote for her ...
--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.
  Click to see the full signature.
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