OT: Interesting item on deadly force law in Missouri

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wrote:

And don't forget to include in your reading court cases, including US Supreme Court decisions, interpreting such statures in light of the Fourth Amendment.
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But isn't self defense one of the underlying defenses that can be used to the justified homicide conclusion?
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wrote:

DING DING DING!!!! Somebody GETS it!!!!!
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On Thursday, August 28, 2014 3:27:53 PM UTC-4, Pico Rico wrote:

Bong, bong, bong, Somebody doesn't. When there are statutes on the books that specifically cover use of force, use of deadly force by police officers, while making arrests, why would you go instead to the more restrictive statutes and case history of ordinary self-defense by a citizen for your defense?
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He could claim self defense. Justifiable homicide doesn't just come out of nowhere and bite you on the ass. Justifiable Homicide: Homicides which are excused by the law. Justifiable homicide defenses are typically complete defenses, meaning that the defense, if proven, would allow the defendant to get off with no punishment or sentencing given. (Note: Perfect S-D includes the homicide being needed for self defense. In other words, the self defense is an element of proving justifiable homicide).
? Perfect Self-Defense: It is a defense to homicide if the defendant acted out of the honest and reasonable belief that the homicide was necessary for self-defense. The defendant will usually be required to prove that they did not initiate the violence, and that they used an equal amount of force in responding to the aggressor.
? Imperfect Self-Defense: If the defendant honestly believed that self-defense was necessary, but a reasonable person would believe otherwise, then the defendant might still get off on imperfect self-defense. The main difference between perfect and imperfect self-defense is that imperfect self-defense does not have a reasonable belief requirement. (Note; Doubt this is available to cops related to their training, etc.)
? Defense of Property: It usually must be proven that the intruder or trespasser had threatened the life of the property owner. ? Duress/Necessity: If the defendant was forced to commit the killing, it may be a possible defense. For example, if they were held at gunpoint and forced to kill another person, it may relieve them of the charges. Not available for murder charges. ? Crime Prevention: If the defendant committed a killing in the course of preventing a crime, it can be a defense if it is proven that they were reasonable in their intervention.
(Note: This above might be the defense if you had someone who just needed killing. grin).
http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/defenses-to-a-homicide-char ge.html
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Wow! English is my first language and I have absolutely no idea what this point means.
Out of the clear blue, a 'defendant' is mentioned. Does that mean the officer, when charged? Or, does that mean the perpetrator of a felony, and that perpetrator is now being called a defendant?
Also, no rating for the felony? like really, really slight to murder, no rating whatsoever. And yse, some felony charges are slight.
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On Thursday, August 28, 2014 5:09:03 PM UTC-4, Robert Macy wrote:

I agree that part is unclear.

That law has been on the books a long time. If you look a bit you can find discussions about more recent case law. That case law restricts the overly broad conditions of that law. Pico is right that an officer can't just shoot any suspected felon when it's necessary to effect the arrest. But even with those restricitons, the officer has much wider leeway in making the call of when to shoot than you or I would. For eample, the courts make it clear a cop can't shoot someone suspected of a felony who is just running away and not behaving violently, at all. The case law talks about the shooting not being justified when the suspect is not behaving violently, poses no immediate threat to the officer, etc.
But of course in the case of Brown, if the officer's version is true and substantiated by injuries, then Brown already was violent and he posed a continued threat to the officer and possibly others, until he was arrested. If it's true the officers gun discharged in the car during a struggle for it, the officer sustained facial injuries, Brown refused the officer's commands to surrender, then Brown probably met the conditions of (c) in the law.
That's why the statute governing the police use of deadly force offers a much better defense for the cop than the general self-defense statutes. The above statute clearly gives cops more leeway, due to their special positions than you or I. As ordinary citizens, we have no option (c) for example.
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wrote:

that is why the US Supreme Court has decided cases that significantly limit such statutes.
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On Thursday, August 28, 2014 5:16:57 PM UTC-4, Pico Rico wrote:

"Significantly limit" doesn't mean that the statute no longer applies at all and a police officer has only the same self-defense statutes that civilains do. That is what you are claiming. The court decisions I found talk about an officer not being justified in shooting someone who is "nonviolent", not a threat to the officer or anyone else, etc. If the officer's version is close to true, you had two guys who just committed a robbery, Brown had struggled for the officers gun while the officer was still in the car, with the gun going off, Brown assaulted the officer (a violent felony). That's a long, long way from a cop shooting a fleeing, non-violent burglar in the back.
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wrote:

read the US Supreme Court decisions on statutes such as these, pertaining to police officer use of deadly force. How many times to I have to tell ya?
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On Thursday, August 28, 2014 5:18:15 PM UTC-4, Pico Rico wrote:

I have read them. Just because the SC drew some limitations on parts of those statutes, doesn't mean they are completely out the window and police officers are reduced to just using the same self-defense laws that ordinary citizens need to use for their defense.
For a simple example, during a confrontation, an officer has no duty to try to retreat. In most states, a private citizen does. That can severly limit my defense if I shoot someone versus the cop shooting someone. See the difference? Are you going to tell us that the officer is then guilty, because he has to rely on the same self-defense statues as civilians?
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wrote:

sounds like self defense!
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wrote:

I think we do. It is called self defense and defense of others.
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On Thursday, August 28, 2014 6:47:26 PM UTC-4, Pico Rico wrote:

The statutes that apply to *law officers* give them leeway that civilians don't have because of the nature of their jobs. Civilians, for example, have a duty to retreat, if possible. If you got into a fight with some guy out on the street, went into your house, got a gun, went back out there and it escalated into you shooting him, you could very likely be charged. You had the opportunity to end it, but you went and got a gun. If the police officer went to confront the guy, the rules are different, and he wouldn't be charged. Capiche?
Look for example at what the police did to the Boston bombing suspect. He was hiding in a boat, unarmed, unresponsive. When he wouldn't come out, they opened fire and nearly killed him. No police officer was charged, there wasn't even any talk about the *possibility* of an officer being charged. Hell, they didn't even know for sure who was in that boat, it could have been some kid. What do you think would happen if a civilian did that to a perp? You'd be charged and good luck relying on the self defense statutes, especially in MA. The civilian would be called a vigilante, because the rules are different.
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wrote:

maybe, maybe not.

to police office must STILL be acting in defense of self or others.

if you were alone with that terrorist and no police were anywhere to be found for a long time, you would be justified in doing the same thing.
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On Thursday, August 28, 2014 7:35:10 PM UTC-4, Pico Rico wrote:

So what? If the person made an aggressive move towards the officer on the street and he shoots him, he's justified. If *you*, ie a civilian, had an argument with the guy on the street, then went inside your house, came back with a gun, and he made an aggressive move towards you, you'd likely be charged in most states, because you had every opportunity to retreat, stay in the house, defuse the situation. Instead you chose to confront the guy with a gun. The rules for police and civilians are different. Why do you think there is a separate statute for police officers, that has been posted here for you to read?

Changing of the facts noted. The perp was hiding inside a covered up boat in an empty backyard. He wasn't alone with anyone. Before you say that a civilian would be justified in firing into a covered up boat, without knowing who is in there, perhaps you better read the law.
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On Thu, 28 Aug 2014 14:18:15 -0700, "Pico Rico"

Do you know the name of a few? I know I could dig it out but if you are familiar I prefer not reinventing the wheel.
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wrote:

so what? I thought this is the point you were arguing about. Under the Supreme Court decisions an officer is justified in using deadly force when in defense of self or others.
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On Friday, August 29, 2014 8:58:10 AM UTC-4, Pico Rico wrote:


,



Why

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The laws for the use of deadly force by a police officer are different than the self-defense laws for civilians. And being a cop, you'd have to have an idiot for an attorney for the defense to rely on civilian self defense laws, instead of the much more favorable ones that *specifically cover police officers.* That's so what. Several others folks have tried to explain the same thing.
I thought this is the point you were arguing about. Under the

n

Try reading what the SC actually said:
"This case requires us to determine the constitutionality of the use of dea dly force to prevent the escape of an apparently unarmed suspected felon. W e conclude that such force may not be used unless it is necessary to preven t the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the offi cer or others."
If the officer's account is true, substantiated by injuries, then the suspe ct did pose a significant threat of serious physical injury to the officer. And note that the SC was ruling on statutes specific to police officers, no t to self-defense laws for civilians. Apparently the SC understands the difference.
Also from the SC:
"[W]e are not convinced that the use of deadly force is a sufficiently prod uctive means of accomplishing them to justify the killing of nonviolent sus pects. . . . The fact is that a majority of police departments in this coun try have forbidden the use of deadly force against nonviolent suspects. . . . Petitioners and appellant have not persuaded us that shooting nondangero us fleeing suspects is so vital as to outweigh the suspect's interest in hi s own life."
Note the part about "non violent", "nondangerous".
"It is not, however, unconstitutional on its face. Where the officer has pr obable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unrea sonable to prevent escape by using deadly force. Thus, if the suspect threa tens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that h e has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction o f serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent e scape, and if, where feasible, some warning has been given. As applied in s uch circumstances, the Tennessee statute would pass constitutional muster."
Note that if the officer's account of being attacked in his car, struggle for the gun, gun going off in the car (which should be easy to prove from forensics), the officer being punched in the head, etc are substantially true, then I think reasonable folks would say that the perp had met the tes t of inflicting or threatening to inflict serious physical harm.
And again, note that the relevant SC case law is on statutes involving the *police use of deadly force*, not the use by ordinary civilians. There is a difference and it's the officers first line of defense in court.
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Thanks for posting about that law, and thank you to the someone who posted the EXACT law.
It just seems that 9-10 shots [did you hear the recording?] seems a bit excessive. But then again, from personal experience during a 'mugging'; I now know that once you go into shock you'll go after your assailant with no thinking. In my case merely stunned and being of light stature still went after him, totally bizarre. Now relate that 'condition' to this situation and the shock of being shot. Browne was likely to go after the cop, giving the impression to the cop of present danger, justifying more shooting, which resulted in severe injuries and more shock and more 'going after your assailant' so the situation escalated into tragedy all the way around.
Again, from experience, even knocked out cold you will still unconsciously go after your assailant no matter the odds of success.
Regarding the covered boat incident, wouldn't it been sad if a deaf person was hiding there?
Hate that specious argument against what you've said as 'You're wrong. I know the answer, It's easy, but YOU have to look it up" and then NEVER supplying ANY supporting documentation. Just went through a 'technical' argument like that, hate it.
Who was it that said, Please, no feeding the trolls. :)
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