OT: I just upgraded to Win 10

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On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 12:35:49 PM UTC-4, Tony944 wrote:

With Win 7 and a hard drive, it took me over a minute. It's not a big problem, but faster is definitely better. Especially if when you're doing things that require a reboot.

Sure, there will always be some older apps that can be problems and reasons for not upgrading.
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On 07/29/2016 09:36 PM, Tony944 wrote:

Maybe because I have a 5GB wireless plan and I prefer not to pay overage for endless updates as MS tries to make 10 work?
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On Friday, July 29, 2016 at 4:40:52 PM UTC-4, Roy wrote:

How do they get on an Apple machine if not by being downloaded? For decades now you could have updates downloaded and installed automatically by Windows if you choose. I don't see how what Apple does could be different than that.
There are valid reasons why you don't want updates installed automatically. Even MSFT recognizes that, because they allow enterprise customers to avoid automatic updates on Win 10. I know they can delay them for months at least, if not avoid them all together. While it's not common any more for updates to screw up something, it can and does still happen. Just like business, some home users prefer to decide when to have a PC update itself. Many people use home PCs for business too. If you knew you had an important Skype video conference with a client, your boss, etc tomorrow at 9AM, would you want your PC to apply some updates at 5AM? I have a friend who is an author and uses his PC to write books. He's not super PC savvy, had auto updates set on and he's one of the many people who got slammed with Win 10. He went to use his PC and instead of the familiar Win 7 interface, unexpectedly he was faced with Win 10. So now it was spend whatever time it takes right now to figure out how to use it, regardless of his needs and schedule. He called up MSFT irate, and they told him it was $120 to talk to a tech, no other help. He gave them a CC, got through to a tech in India, who stepped him through putting it back to Win 7. Then he kept complaining, got a supervisor and finally a supervisor cancelled the charge. The tech told him he had many calls like his. And how did he get slammed? By having it set to auto update. Also, if you want to be very cautious, before applying updates you would want to make a backup of the system, so that if it does cause problems, you know you have an almost 100% and quick solution. Those are some of the reasons I have always had my PC set to notify me of updates, but let me choose which ones to download and install. That is how I avoided getting slammed with Win 10 until I was ready.
Some people are so damned impatient. My dumb neighbor who still runs XP wouldn't accept any updates for years and his computer was and is a friggin' mess all of the time.

I agree not installing updates at all is foolish, but that is different than controlling when and which updates get installed.
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On 7/30/2016 9:07 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Depends on your needs. We have an XP machine at work and it has never been upgraded. It is not connected to the internet, does not use email and runs two programs that monitor some equipment. It has 2 hard drives plus I have a spare.
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On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 9:39:23 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Yes, you're of course right. I was thinking in the context of the typical home user connected to the internet.
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On 07/30/2016 08:39 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
[snip]

I have an old machine (166MHz Pentium, 128MB RAM) That's running Windows 2000 (I have a friend who likes Spider Solitaire, which won't run on 9x). This machine does have a limited lifetime considering that it requires a hard disk smaller than 8.4GB.
--
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http://notstupid.us/
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On 07/28/2016 09:27 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Edge is suitable for installing FireFox.
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On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 11:10:43 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote:

This might save a bit of time on occaision, but is generally not recommended unless you are deliberately installing software.
If there ever is a new exploit discovered (in Windows itself, Windows programs like IE or Office apps, Adobe programs, etc.), your admin session may much more easily install malware. And let's face it, hackers discover such security problems on a regular basis and there is always a delay before corrective fixes are developed and distributed.
If you have a habit of using a user-level account, you will usually (at least sometimes) get a dialogue box asking if you want to "make changes to the system". If you are running a session with admin permissions, you will often see nothing to indicate that you have been hacked. If you are lucky, you might get a command window that comes up and dissapears before you can read it.
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To Ralph: Thanks for that description. It's the first detailed review of Win10 software compatibility I've seen.
| If there ever is a new exploit discovered (in Windows itself, Windows | programs like IE or Office apps, Adobe programs, etc.), your admin | session may much more easily install malware. And let's face it, hackers | discover such security problems on a regular basis
Yes, and most of them bypass file restrictions. That's part of what makes them exploits. If you want to wear a helmet to take a walk that's up to you. It may make you a bit safer. Before you tell other people to wear a helmet you need to know what you're talking about.
I always run with no restrictions. I haven't used AV for years. I wouldn't touch things like MalwareBytes. I've never had malware. Why? Because I avoid enabling javascript whenever possible, I don't have Flash installed, I don't install anything from Adobe, and I don't have Java installed. Nearly all malware from online requires javascript to be active. Much of it exploits Flash or Acrobat Reader plugins. Much of it exploits MS Office programs. There's no reason for using Adobe products or MS Office, with the exception that some might have to use MS Office for work. Even then, you can be careful about MSO file extensions. You don't have to cripple the system to do that. Just be careful.
If you routinely enable javascript while running in lackey mode with file restrictions, then you're walking around with a helmet while staring at your cellphone: You'll almost certainly be run over sooner or later. In the meantime you're saddled with that uncomfortable helmet.
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Me, also. It's called Linux and I run all that stuff you decry. I also run NoScript, which kills all client-side scripts (java,flash,etc) at yer browser. I can also visit those web-sites you warn against. No so, Windows.
nb
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On Thursday, July 28, 2016 at 10:29:09 AM UTC-6, Mayayana wrote:

You and your computer must live a dull life with few risks to make your heart beat faster as the predators close in on you. Being super safe also excludes one from the joys of "Flash" and "Java" and all that they entail.
Just an observation...not a criticism as such. ===
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| You and your computer must live a dull life with few risks to make your heart beat faster as the predators close in on you. | Being super safe also excludes one from the joys of "Flash" and "Java" and all that they entail. |
I guess that's one way of looking at it. I wouldn't want Flash even if it were safe. I don't like things jumping and moving on the page when I'm trying to read. I don't like slideshows that I can't shut off, videos running that I didn't start, or windows popping up that I didn't ask for. If I want to watch Saturday morning cartoons I'll turn on the TV. :)
I can't imagine why you need Java. It's rare these days. Very few people need it.
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I have none of these problems cuz NoScript.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NoScript
.....kills 'em all. I can enable them, one script at a time or all at once. My choice!

Javascript is not the same as Java and javascript is used almost everywhere, these days.
https://www.java.com/en/download/faq/java_javascript.xml
nb
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On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 12:56:16 -0400, "Mayayana"

plain will not work without the version of java they were programmed with, or higher.
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| > I can't imagine why you need Java. It's rare these | >days. Very few people need it. | > | In the business world there is a LOT of Java aplications that just | plain will not work without the version of java they were programmed | with, or higher.
Yes. On corporate intranets. I meant for browsers on the Internet.
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On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 21:44:37 -0400, "Mayayana"

In the insurance office where I spend every morning, the majority of the "portals" we access across the internet are java apps. These "portals" are insurance company websites from all over Canada (and a few in the USA)
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| > Yes. On corporate intranets. I meant for | >browsers on the Internet. | > | So did I. | In the insurance office where I spend every morning, the majority of | the "portals" we access across the internet are java apps. These | "portals" are insurance company websites from all over Canada (and a | few in the USA)
That's still corporate/business usage, even if it's not intranet. In general, people visiting websites online do not need Java and have not for many years. Java is big, but mostly it's used in business for in-house applets. You just happen to be accessing one of those remotely.
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On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 12:28:22 -0400, Mayayana wrote:

I don't install Flash, Adobe PDF reader, or Java as well. JS is enabled in FF; but not with IE. (If fact, I try not to use IE at all.)
But some exploits are directly in Windows itself. Unless you are constantly installing software, I cannot see where the extra user-level dialog boxes (the ones that ask for an admin password) cause enough bother to offset the protection they can sometimes provide.
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| I don't install Flash, Adobe PDF reader, or Java as well. JS is enabled | in FF; but not with IE. (If fact, I try not to use IE at all.) | | But some exploits are directly in Windows itself.
I don't know what you mean. Do you mean like attacks in email? That should also be blocked by disabling script, HTML and remote linking in email. Of course there could be attacks through attachments. I sometimes get booby-trapped ZIP files. One just needs to be careful. When the email is from "Bridgette Wong", whom I've never heard of, and the subject is "your contract", then I look at the email as source code before opening it. :) I also tell friends to write *something* in the email if they expect me to open an attachment, so that I know that they know they sent it. I don't know what other kinds of exploits might be "in Windows itself". It has to come from somewhere outside: webpage, download, email, USB stick with auto-run enabled, etc.
Most problems are with those Web-connected programs. And those problems are nearly all related to javascript. There are rare exception. A few years ago there was a bug in gdiplus.dll that allowed attacks via corrupted JPG files. That actually required a Windows update to fix. But those problems are rare.
| Unless you are | constantly installing software, I cannot see where the extra user-level | dialog boxes (the ones that ask for an admin password) cause enough | bother to offset the protection they can sometimes provide. |
I don't like distractions and obstacles, especially when they're unnecessary. As I said, I've never had a problem, so the hassle would not be providing protection. It would be like putting kiddie locks on all of my kitchen cabinets. They'd drive me crazy, and no kids live here.
For friends who don't know how to be careful I install AV. That should let them know if something tries some funny business. And I warn them about email attachments. Even for them, lackey mode seems like overkill to me. It's mainly designed to keep corporate employees from doing anything they don't have permission to do. One case of the OS telling me I don't have permission to access a file is one case too many of idiotic obstacles, from my point of view. And as I pointed out above, most exploits that work are now designed to bypass restrictions.
There are pros and cons to both sides of the argument. The problem is that the pro-restriction side always talks like their view is simply right. It's not "right". It's one approach, which is designed primarily for corporate customers. In recent years it's also become the norm in general usage, due to 3 dovetailing causes:
1) Corporate IT people only know the admin/lackey model and tend to advise about what they know.
2) Security online has become more of a problem.
3) Microsoft want to close down control of the system in order to sell services. Causes #1 and #2 provide them with a perfect excuse to move in that direction, with Microsoft essentially becoming your IT admin/boss. They can access files that you can't. Restrictions also help MS to reduce tech support costs. If you can't touch anything but your own DOC files then you can't break anything and therefore won't be calling MS to get it fixed.
Windows 10 is very gradually moving toward being interactive TV, selling you services while spying on you and showing you ads. The widespread fallacy that it's not safe to allow yourself access to your own computer is helping them to achieve that.
So all I'm advocating is a reasoned approach. If you want to run restricted that's fine. If you want a governor on your car speed, or a protective grille around your stove burners, or complex blade guards on your table saw, or grab bars in your shower (as someone was talking about above)... All those things could make some sense. But that's not the same as saying everyone should do what you do.
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After serious thinking Mayayana wrote :

I think he meant the "vulnerabilities" instead of the "exploits".
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