OT, I guess. What happens with FIOS

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wrote:

This is not really a problem. They only have to reposition the satellite, use both optical and thermal sensing, and do a Graham projection of the area around the signal. Then they run a Gresham algorithm to enhance the projection, run a Peterson progression to align this with the topographic databases to allow for elevation and triangulation, and then they just send an ambulance to the person lying next to the laptop.

Yes, I guess the procedure above is recent. I've been so deeply involved it seems like decades.

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I have FIOS. the ONT which convers the optical cable to standard DSL like is outside on side of house.
The power supply is in the basement with a built in UPS that only keeps the phone service working but you can plug this unit into a larger UPS if you want, Doing so will keep the internet part working too during a outage.
I have mixed feeling about FIOS the internet part works awesome HOWEVER the phone side is much less reliable than copper and worse the reps really dont care. We had SEVERE troubles and it took over a month to get it fixed, the last 2 weeks I called daily and the trouble effected the entire central office.
I will likely go VOIP it cant be any worse:(
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Do you have any experience with how long the FIOS battery backup lasts? Verizon says it lasts "up to 8 hours". But it's unclear if that means 8 hours without any phone calls, with some phone calls, or 8 hours of talk time. I'm guessing it probably means 8 hours with very little use.

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On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 05:42:47 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

That makes sense, because if it lasted for 8 hours of talking, they'd probably say it lasted up to 24 hours.
Somewhat similar is that in the last 30 years almost everyone has started saying that if something goes from 100 to 400 that it is 4 times greater, when it is only 3 times greater and 4 times as great.

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wrote:
[snip]

Also, "up to" specifies no lower limit, so 10 milliseconds still counts as "up to" 24 hours.

A very common problem, which I hear often. Because of that I get suspicious whenever I hear sometinng like "__ times __er than __" (as in 3 times bigger, 4 times longer, etc...).
There's also "this bulb uses 200% less electricity than normal bulbs". What is that supposed to mean?
[snip]
--
99 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
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On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:13:19 -0500, Mark Lloyd

If they don't know arithmetic, or they don't know English, how good could they be anyhow?

I guess you get to sell it back to the grid. Gotta get me some of those.

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during a real emergency cell service for most will automatically quit working while first responders will still work.
duriung such a emergency 911 calls still function
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pre-empt 911 calls like they do normal calls, but the system simply doesn't have the capacity for every cell user to make a call at once. Neither does the hardwired land-line system (which is still involved in most cell connections), or the 911 switches and consoles, or the pipe from them to the telco, which is a choke point for both types of calls. In any major disaster, voice service at a minimum bogs down, and ofter goes out entirely for hours or days. They did note, during the recent unpleasantness down south a couple years ago, that text service often holds out longer than voice service. Less bandwidth needed, and (I suspect), people simply don't think to use it. When people are upset or panicked, they want to hear a human voice telling them things will be all right.
aem sends....
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wrote:

Someday they'll probably take every thing out of the central office that is needed to run on coppper, but until then, what maintenance is required for a homeowner's little piece of wire that he's not using?

Doesn't it cost a lot more on Fios than what I have now?

I think DSL probably works better on fiber, but there wouldn't be any improvement for voice phone calls.
If fios isn't more expensive, there is still the bit about power failures. Why would one want to have to have a UPS to power fios, even if it worked, when a copper wired phone requires no electicity except what the phone company provides? It's nice when the power is out and you can't watch tv and your UPS isn't big enough to spend more than 10 minutes on the computer, to talk on the phone all night.
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mm wrote:

Sure, but if they don't do it they will be out of business. The cable companies are deploying VoIP and essentially becoming phone companies. Since they can do it over their existing cable plant they can offer it for a lower cost because they don't need to install a new cable system to do it. So it doesn't cost them a lot to become a competitive phone service provider. If the phone companies don't respond with similar bundled services they need to prepare for eventual shutdown.

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wrote:

So that's why it would matter! Isn't it obvious that most people (all people?) want to pay less for something if it is just as good. If I have a temporary need for FIOS for tv or internet, I shouldn't allow them to trick me (by meanss of some bundle or package the consequences of which I don't understand) into FIOS for phone if that means that I won't be able to go back to copper phone. Or if I have a permanent need for high speed, it means that if I move out and rent or sell my house, I will either have to hide this from a prospective renter (and antagonize him in the process) or buyer, or I'll have to tell him and risk losing the rental or sale when he finds out he'll have to pay for FIOS, and that without paying an electrician can never get anything cheaper, even though the people next door on both sides of him are paying a lot less for phone.

That's not going to be for years and it's speculation in that there are lots of ways to make money. For example, by advertising or by normal demand they might get everyone to want FIOS, so that few or none want to move backwards. Although I still have a dial phone connected, I don't object to them taking out dial-capabilities now, or even 10 years ago if it costs more than a trivial amount of money to maintain.
As to going out of business, that's their problem a lot more than it is my problem. As long as they sell the cheap, original version of phone service, then people should know and protect themselves from company policies. Where this applies, everyone should realize that their intention will be to remove the copper if they put in FIOS for everything.that's what I'm going to buy, and and if putting in FIOS will cause them to
Maybe this policy should be regulated by law. Don't forget that the phone company is a public utility. Don't let conservatives convince you that nothing should be regulated. If they had their way, some would want to remove all the building codes and let people build anything they wanted, regardless of the fires, disease, and collapses that resulted.

Not removing copper doesn't change the equation. If FIOS is a better product, enough people will want it that the phone company will do fine.
If VOIP is better (which aiui, it's not) why is wrong if it wins?

That is their problem. I don't have to subvert my interests to promote them.
mm

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mm wrote:

I seriously doubt anyone would even think twice about how the phone/data/TV service arrived into their apartment or house. I don't understand what you mean "pay for FiOS". Wouldn't they need to "pay for cable" or "pay for phone service" if they wanted it regardless of the provider?

You are completely missing the big picture. You have to plan far out into the future for this kind of stuff. The phone company can't simply sit on its hands and then one day wake up and realize that they lost 85% of their customers to the cable companies. My buddy works for one of the big cable companies and they can't even come close to addressing the demand for their phone service. And the cable company install is about 5% (or less) of the complexity of a FiOS install.

You may not realize it but you are using VoIP pretty much every time you use your telephone that is connected via copper lines. Pretty much all signaling after the CO and sometimes before is digital.

Obviously it is their problem. If they don't promote FiOS and loose most of their customers how much do you think a plain copper line might cost? I think it might be quite expensive if only 10% of the people on a block have one .

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wrote:

Maybe you are out of touch with people who have less money than you do. We have millions, maybe 10's of millions of home buyers who learned what happens when the interest on their mortgage goes up, and learned that they can't buy as big a home that they might want, or spend another 500 dollars a year on this, and 500 on that, and on that.
I heard other study on the radio a day or two ago, that when Pell grants are lowered just 100 or 200, that one can notice the students who drop out of college, because they and their parents have already stetched to the limit to come up with the money they are spending for college with the full Pell grant.
This is not special to to house buying or college. My brother makes a good living, thank God, and what he does is buy whatever he needs and puts the rest in a savings account. When he has enough, he buys a stock or a bond. But most people have a budget, even a written budget, and they try to stick to it.
And all of those people have a price point. A price above which they will not buy. Regardless of how low or high it is, even if it is higher than it should be for their income, they have one.
If someone here was buying a home and all they considered was how much money they had to put down, everyone here would ridicule them. They have to consider the mortage, insurance, taxes, upkeep, AND utilities.
Of course not every buyer will be disuaded by another 200 or 500 a year, but some of those people will feel, Why should I pay 200 for FIOS when I have no interest in it, when I can buy the other house, and for the same 200 extra, get that extra tree, or the
Car dealers and other vendors know that "throwing in" some little cheap almost worthless feature can make a sale. Maybe not as common, but insisting on selling the buyer an undesirer feature can queer a sale.

You just agreed in your previous reply to me that FIOS costs a lot more. So I don't understand the point of your question. It's like asking, wouldn't a woman need to pay for a dress to wear to a wedding, so why should she object to paying 3 times as much as she paid for her previous dress?

They have to plan, not me. I have to worry about paying my expenses and those of people who depend on me, and saving money for retirement.

I never suggested they sit on their hands. They can install as many Fios lines as they want. That doesn't mean they have to take out the copper and especially not by tricking me. And what if I move for another job and rent my home, and the tenant puts in Fios and has no idea they'll be taking out the copper, or doesn't appreciate the consequencs. Then when I get back, I get the shaft. A friend of mine got a job in another city for a year and rented his house to a tenant, and moved back in a year later, when he got a better job in his home town. Another friend kept his house as an investment when he got married and bought a bigger house with his wife. When he got divorced, it was coincidentally just as the lease on the rental was expiring, and he moved back into his original house. Neither of these tenants screwed anything up,

Why does any of this mean they should take the copper out of house that has it, when they install Fios, and why does any of this mean I should cooperate?
I think when you talk about high demand, you are arguing against your own point. If they have high demand, they ARE making money, and it won't be necessary to take out the copper when eventually everyone wants FIOS. Even if it is only 90% who have ordered it voluntarily, I'm not saying they can't phase out copper when usage on a street is 90% FIOS, or when it costs too much or they need the space at the central station. But that is not the situation we're talking about.
But it is never going to cost them anything to let the copper sit in someone's house and in the yard leading to the house, and it's not costing them anything now to keep the rest of the copper supply system (switches and whatever accessories are required) , becuase they can't provide FIOS for more than a few percent of customers anyhow, and haven't convinced more than 1 or 2 percent to buy it.
I'm not an enemy of corporations. I don't have as much money as my brother, but I have stock in corporations and have had since my father left me stocks when he died when I was 8. My mother lived off that money, the income from mine and my brother's and hers plus part of the principal for 20 years. (My father set it up, as well he should have, that no money went to my brother or me until my mother died, unless my mother requested part of the principal for special expenses.) I know that corporations are supposed to make profits and when they follow proper practices, I'm in favor of it.
We already know that VErizon isn't big on full disclosure, and without full disclosure in advance, the company IMO isn't honest**. I've referring to the 20 dollar connection and shipping charge they tacked on after I was 90% done signing up, when they bragged in advance in detail about *every*thing that they gave me "Free". The installation charge (for work done at their office, since I did the work here) cost more that the "First Month Free" that they bragged about everywhere.
**That's why the 20 dollars bothered me so much. It's not the 20 dollars so much as I think they weren't honest.

So that's fine. It reinforces my question. Not removing the copper doesn't change t he equation, and if FIOS can't compete with VOIP, is more expensive or does less well or customers don't like it, why is it wrong if VOIP wins and Fios losses?

It costs them NOTHING now. They have the wire in place adn they have the central station equipment in place as long as anyone at the local station is using copper.

We're at 98% now. When we get down to 20% we can make plans.

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mm wrote:

Not understanding what this has to do with the discussion. Lets say you have FiOS in an apartment you own and across town you have another apartment with cable carrying TV/data/phone the same as FiOS. When someone moves in it is up to them to decide what if anything they wish to purchase. In either case they could get phone or TV or data or *nothing*.

I agreed it cost more for them to install.
It's like

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wrote:

My brother has a lot of money** but not everyone does. The rest have to try not to spend too much.
**One reason my brother has a lot of money is that he doesn't buy everything that is for sale. Aside from travel and restaurants, he doesn't spend much more than our father did.

If you get Fios and you let them take out your copper, or they do it without telilng you, the person who moves in doesn't get to decide what to purchase. For a phone line, he has to get cable or fios.

That certainly wasn't clear, but maybe we've had a partial misunderstanding:
You said:

So, who pays the much higher installation charge?
And, doesn't it cost more for Fios monthly than what they are charging me now?

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mm wrote:

It's "Libertarians" that believe nothing should be regulated. We conservatives think some things should be: the border, terrorists, and, er..., maybe something else. As for building codes etc., the government could, perhaps, mandate insurance to cover any losses (as they do with auto liability insurance) and then let people build - or drive - any old way they want.
I live in a city with no zoning and it works out swell.
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wrote:

What about utilities? :)

Do you live in a nice residential neighborhood? What if your next door neighbor retired from his job and wanted to open an abatoir in his lot?
You have a lot in common with Libertarians. That's why most? people categorize libertarians as one of the 3 or 4 major subsets of conservatives.
Although there are some big differences on other points. (But with 20 or 50 issues, we'd need hundreds of thousand of categories if every set of ideas had its own category.)

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Would say your friend is smart!
But; not only doing away with all copper lines!
Electricity! I'm all for 'living better electrically' as they used to advertise some 40+ years ago. And when we built this house in 1970 we did go 'All electric'.
One big advantage, still today, of POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service) over copper wire from the telephone building or cabinet is that it does not depend on modems, computers or electric power at your premises! The small amount of electricity required to operate the phone comes over those two thin copper wires.
The one and only time, for example, we have lost our phone service here in over 40+ years (telephone plant is 95% overhead construction) was when a drop wire to our house was damaged. With no digging the telephone repair was fast and efficient, taking less than four hours, out of service. Even recently our neighbour had loss of service due to a cable pair fault; it was fixed next day. Many thanks to Aliant Telecom, an Atlantic Canadian subsidiary of Bell Canada. Also see note:
Traditional telephone companies typically (those still using say ATT/ Bell System standards) provide battery power back-up at their locations; along the lines of a minimum of 8 busy hours (if they have diesel generators) and 24 hour back-up, if ability to plug in an external generator. These phone lines are often your only way of reaching 911 etc. when we have those very infrequent power failures.
However the traditional telephone companies have been under intense competition to cut costs by the newer companies who may not have that history/tradition of service and who may be providing your TV cable/ internet and other 'added' services from cabinets mounted along the street. Some of those systems use only AC power or at most have small batteries in each cabinet which will only last a few hours at best. With small decentralized battery installation it is cheaper to provide service but there is less chance of recharging them until power is restored to a whole area.
For example we have lost our cable TV service a few times even though the electricity was still working on our street, because the power was off at a cable TV cabinet several streets over! Glad we didn't get our telephone service from them!
To see how you might fare personally during a power failure, turn off your main circuit breaker and see which services (including some of your phones?) are affected/lose service!
Note: Many of the more sophisticated phones (Call display, automatic dial, message answering etc.) depend on being plugged into a standard wall outlet. Some do have battery back up for any numbers stored, others do not or the protective battery has long ago deterioriated. In most cases that memory back-up battery does NOT operate the phone itself.
IT IS THEREFORE A GOOD IDEA to have one very simple phone THAT DOES NOT DEPEND ON ELECTRCITY TO OPERATE. In fact we have an older rotary dial wall phone, which fascinantes a grandson who has never seen any phone that doesn't have buttons! I must show him a magneto crank phone one f these days!
BTW; if telephone service is essential; have a cell/mobile phone as well; and keep it charged up! Especially during storms. But be prepared for delays if/when a power failure occurs; there are not an infinite number of channels at each cell/mobile site. A satellite phone will also work, provided it is also charged up. But understand minutes are expensive; which however may not be a concern during an emergency.
SO: As long as the commercial AC in your area is reliable (to your home) and the service providers have reasonable power back-up provisioning policies we should be alright say 95% plus of the time.
But it's when that elderly relative has a stroke, and/or you are trying get to a hospital or dial though to an emergency service, with street and traffic lights not working due to power outages that one realises that you can't take anything for granted!
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