OT: Hybrid cars make no economical sense

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RickH wrote:

You are not wrong and price parity is not going to happen. What the greenies neglect to consider or do not have the rationality to do, is that it takes considerably more energy to manufacture a hybrid which is basically a hidden pollution cost. For a driver like you or me, a hybrid would cause more pollution than a non-hybrid. The car would wear out and batteries would need replacement before any positive effects were seen.
I do know a gal who owns a hybrid and drives about 50,000 miles/year. Then the hybrid is worth it.
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You misspelled "know but choose to ignore so their ideas don't look really bad". The same as focussing on "tail pipe admissions" for electric cars and studiously ignoring (especially in the Midwest) the pollution that comes with electrical generation to recharge the cars.
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Those are the dangerous ones. If maybe 20% of the population is functionally illiterate, then what percentage is technically illiterate. It has to be considerably higher. Those that know but choose to ignore are preying on the ignorant to get what they want. Also, unfortunately, only about 5% of our congress consists of either scientists or engineers and they just follow the crowd.
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Oh, fun, arm-chair, back-envelope calculations.
 Those that know but

Unfortunately, Congress doesn't follow the crowd. If they did, we'd have never gone to Iraq and the CEOs,financial wizards, and Neocons wouldn't be running roughshod over the economy.
But actually, Congress does follow the scientists and engineers who work for the large defense contractors evenly spread throughout their states. That's why we have wonderful boondoggles like the "missile- defense" system, spend half of all discretionary spending on defense, and other things like lasers which will cost about $350000 per enemy combatant vaporized.
The idea that the greenies are the powerful bloc controlling the dialogue is the ridiculous one, and I wonder what kind of illiteracy it is that can't compare the money behind the anti-green interests versus the money behind the green ones. Is it some sort of math or some sort of emotional weakness?
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wrote:

Looks like we've been invaded by a bunch of backwards thinking, pissed off, limpdick, rednecks who have a thing for their pick-up trucks!
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RickH wrote:

The battery pack is the main concern I have with them, and the complex control systems which are likely to make the car difficult and expensive to repair when it gets older. People look at the operating cost alone and forget all the additional energy required to manufacture the extra components including obtaining the raw materials, energy required to dismantle and recycle the materials at end of life, and the likely shorter overall lifespan due to the higher cost of major repairs. I'm not convinced there is any net savings, financial or environmental.
I ran some numbers a while back and found that gasoline would have to be something like $15/gallon for it to make economic sense over driving my already long paid for car which gets decent though not spectacular fuel economy. Instead, I combine trips, keep my car well maintained, and ride a bicycle when practical. If I were to buy a new car I'd look at a TDI, similar fuel economy as a hybrid, simpler, cheaper, no battery pack. When I was a kid we had a diesel car that got 50-60mpg, and it was a LOT cheaper than a hybrid that gets 35-40 mpg.
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RickH wrote:

Rick--
    My admittedly limited knowledge of the technology tells me that you can't make a blanket statement about fuel cost or mileage. My understanding is that the battery is charged by recovery of energy from the braking system. If this is so, there should be essentially no increased fuel economy on open road, no-traffic driving.     Mileage is considerably reduced in conventional cars in "city" or stop and go driving. If the braking system recycles any of this wasted energy, the mileage differential of a hybrid in the city should be lowered. So this probably makes sense only as a car for urban or congested areas--if you're looking at fuel economy.     It does seem like a mongrel technology to me. I should really ride my bicycle more.
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
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On Dec 10, 1:21 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld

Yes the electric motor only runs in stop and go situations, highway cruising is all gas engine. The dealer told me in Chicago expect the battery pack to be good through 5 winters (60 months max just like any other car battery). In sub zero weather the 5 year old battery is risky. If you live in the city and still need to drive, it becomes more economical, but that is not my situation nor is it the situation of most suburbanites.
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Here is some interesting stuff, my crappy 1997 Neon is very good fore a lifetime environmental cost and the Hybrids are cfostly and the battery issue of manufacturing and disposal makes them very bad. Of course if the technology improves things could change a lot. http://business.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070727.wreynolds0727/BNStory/robColumnsBlogs / and http://www.cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/DUST%20PDF%20VERSION.pdf
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On Dec 10, 2:21 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld

It is a mongrel technology, but I tend to view it more as a stepping- stone.
There are also different types of technology. For example, the Honda Civic hybrid uses a 1.3 liter engine that can't be found in other, non- hybrid, civics because the engine simply can't move the weight of the car by itself. So, when you need a little juice on the highway (or anywhere for that matter) the electric motor kicks in, allowing you to drive a heavy 4-door sedan using a tiny gas engine.
So, RickH again misleads the community by stating that "the electric motor only runs in stop and go situations". that is simply untrue. Kudos to the salesman that suckered him into the surplus vehicle they had laying around though! I'm sure when they have a few hybrids in stock that they need to move the salesman will have a different story.
Some credit to RickH for the story about the "knowledgeable, honest" car salesman! First time buying a car RickH?
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Actually the clincher was that they refused to install just a small 1 inch hitch on the hybrid. I'm leery to begin with because a friend had a 2001 Prius, I saw him later in 2004 and he explained was having the batteries changed (shortly after the 3 year warranty ran out). Plus I saved over $4000 and got the all-gas vehicle at a great price. Considering gas is below $1.50 a gallon that 4k will go even farther.
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Wow I guess my Camry gets 37 mpg, not because of the hybrid system (which you claim can't possibly work) but because of magic.

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Art wrote:

    I assume you're addressing Rick. I have insufficient knowledge of the numbers on hybrids to comment. BTW, I drive an '01 Camry 4 cyl. The acceleration is adequate. I haven't checked the mileage in a while, but it's not great in the city--almost certainly below 20 mpg.
Steve

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years with the hybrid. The reduced demand for gasoline would also keep the fuel price low if every one did the hybrid and battery thing. It would probably also impact the cost of heating oil. More power generated from wind and solar would also do the same thing for conventionally produce electricity.
Bob
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I don't think you're wrong or right - it's your decision. What I would like, though, is a government that considers the issue, hopefully much more in depth than any one individual can, and comes up with a policy on the issue, e.g., if hybrids are really a worthwhile thing, then the government could subsidize their purchase so that your price issues become less or disappear altogether.
-S-
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HYbrids are stupid. It takes years to make up that extra $4,000 and they don't get good gas milage.
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Maybe it depends on your perspective? The little 4-cylinder Miata I drove for 12 years needed to be filled up every 7 days to cover my commute. The Hybrid I drive now needs a fill-up every 19 days for the same commute. I don't think we need to start another thread in search of mathematicians for those numbers, do we?
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The lottery is a tax on people who are bad at math.
Hybrids are a tax on people who are bad at math and science.
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And mottos are for those who do not care to tax their minds.
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Miguel de Maria wrote:

I like mottos:
SUVs are a tax on--------
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
  Click to see the full signature.
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