OT: Hybrid cars make no economical sense

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RickH wrote:

Well, they've got all those virgins...
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
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If your driving habits fit a hybrid, it might make sense to buy one. Batteries/repair not cheap.
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Miguel;
There is a huge difference between wanting to do something good and actually doing it. While part of the motivation for buying things like the Prius may well be all sunshine and light as you suggest, another huge part at the moment is basking in the public perception that you are 'doing something'. If the raw truth of the matter does not match the heavily propagandized image, then you may in fact be doing far more harm than good.
If the mass market comes to believe that by subscribing to the hybrid doctrine they can rest easy and look no deeper into pollution problems, we'll be going backwards at a terrifying pace.
I won't have a hybrid on my place 'til the numbers work, nor will I fall into the even more illusionary ethanol trap. I have, however, bought 54 acres of mixed bush. Looking after this little patch of ground ensures that my trees contribute far more to the cleanup of the atmosphere than half a dozen Priapi would, and the trees will still be here when the hybrids of the Hollywood darlings are all cluttering up the boneyards.
KH

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You are entirely too pragmatic.
You have no political future.
You'll remain one of the great - albeit diminishing - American thinkers.

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Ah, the good old conservative=smart thing.
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RickH wrote:

My opinion is people who buy hybrids do so for a variety of reasons:
1) They are making a statement 2) They are keeping up with the Joneses 3) They believe the hoopla about man-made global warming 4) They have not researched or thought it through like you have 5) They want to appear progressive and knowledgable 6) They think their "carbon footprint" is reduced 7) They like new gadgetry etc.
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[citation needed]

[citation needed]
nate
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Wow, must be Nate's first day on the Internet! Welcome Nate! I see you more accustomed to peer-reviewed journals and such. Well, we have lots more freedom here on the Internet. For example, you must have missed the post that started this thread, from RickH, who claims "Also the hybrid will need a batter pack change in 5 to 7 years" and "the $3000 cost of the batter pack".
On the internet, we don't need no steenkin' citations! We can say whatever we want. People who are looking for support of their own views will find whatever you say and believe it, not because it's true, but because they want to believe it.
Anyway, welcome to the Internet Newbie! Just for fun, go through google.groups, and type [citation needed] everywhere you find the need for a citation! It will be fun. Hey, you could even start with the first post to this thread instead of in the midle.....hey wait a minute, I'm begfinning to suspect that RickH's line of bullshit supports your own views so you don't ask for citations from him. Wow, you catch on fast!
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Or it could be that *you* are the one full of shit, and I thought it might be more polite to type [citation needed] than "hey, you are full of shit."
But since you are a little up on the slowtake, here you go: you are full of shit.
When was the last time you had *ANY* battery last more than 8 years? Only ones I've ever had that happen to with are the old big heavy lead- acid car batteries; everything else has failed much sooner. My cell phone goes through Li-Ions about every 18 mos. or so.
nate
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Toyota Prius has been selling for over 10 years. Go find the precious "citation" of owners of Prius cars since 1997 that needed to replace a battery because it wore out. Of course, the first generation used Ni- MH. Li-ion batteries were used in the Honda Insight that started selling in the US in 2000. Here we are over 8 years later, and you just can't find the droves of Insight owners that you imply MUST exist who have had battery problems.
Nice comparison....simple cell-phone batteries to car battery systems. You must think there's a stack of cell-phone batteries stacked up in the backs of cars for power. I guess we can cross "engineer" off the list of Nate's possible educational experience.
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dofrenzy wrote:

They're essentially the same technology (assuming we're talking about Li-Ions.) Eventually they will have to be replaced, in many cases before the end user realizes the benefits of the "savings" of the Prius over a reasonably economical conventional vehicle. Oh, and I guess that diploma must be BS, since you say so...
nate
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replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
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wrote:

In the case of a hybrid it might not be immediately apparent the battery was going bad. The engine would just run more but you would still be going down the road, albeit burning more gas.
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Nate I have a solar house. I can tell you one can buy batteries that with last 70 years! You just have to pay for it..... it all comes down to money..... dollars per Amp hour.......... how much can you afford?
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On Dec 11, 11:39am, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

tell me more, I am in fact interested although 70 years sounds quite outside my normal realm of experience... I can't remember any battery lasting much over 15 years or so (car battery) and you can't get them to last anywhere near that long in all climates.
nate
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A neighbor of mine bought these old batteries for his solar system that came from the railroads, probably some kind of old telecommunications batteries. They weighed a ton and were huge. He told me they were about 70 years old, and still worked. With a quick search I found these batteries below. They have a 20 year life, but keep in mind that's what the company may guarantee them for, they will last much longer than that. http://www.oksolar.com/batteries/deka-unigy.htm
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On Dec 12, 11:33am, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

you're right, those ain't cheap... I looked it up, $400 for a 12V/ 135AH battery (about the same size or a little larger than a single battery for a large car/truck) if you had to replace all the batteries in a hybrid with those by the time the original batteries wore out the replacement cost would likely be more than the value of the car!
nate
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Yes, but have faith. If Chevron would quit buying up all the rights to the new battery technologies, and putting them on the self, and letting the free market fuction without a monster like Chevron, who knows what improvements have been made. Also the larger the demand for solar panels , wind turbines, and batteries, the lower the cost. If there was a demand for renewable energy system batteries like the demand for cell phones, computers, etc. it's no telling what we would be looking at 10 years from now in the realm of battery technology. I've seen some amazing transformations in renewable energy within the last 15 years or so.
In Germany they coat the entire surface of office buildings with solar panels, you can also do the same for a car, coat the body in a thin skin of solar panels. I'd stick a couple of small wind turbines on the front of the car too, in 60 mph winds youcould generate some unsubstantial power.
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Damn, it happened faster than I thought. A Korean company invented a technology to get 8x's the energy out of a lithium battery. http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2008/11/11/3776376.htm
This means that the Chevy volt ( another useless gas powered hybrid) instead of getting 40 or so miles on one charge can now get 360 miles!
I hope Chevron, doesn't get wind of this, when they do it's all over.
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N8N wrote:

desk at work today. It started out as one of those y2k countdown clocks, and I rescued it out of a dumpster in early Jan 2000. I played with it long enough to figure out how to put it in vanilla clock mode, and set it on my desk. It has been there ever since, and I have never changed the battery- not sure it CAN be changed, without splitting the sonic-welded case. So, assuming it was given to previous owner in mid 99 at the latest, those little button cells or whatever, have been chugging away around 9 years now.
I figured out how to reset the countdown mode, too, and changed it to the day I am eligible to retire. I don't leave it in that mode though- too depressing.
Most durable advertising 'gimme' I have ever seen.
-- aem sends...
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No. I think you have the facts correct. Our existing technology, burning refined fossil fuel is well developed and supported. And the oil and auto companies have a huge investment in that technology. So on a short term basis, hybrids using presently available battery technology are not likely to be economically viable, yet, for the average private vehicle owner. Maybe 20 years from now?
And it is the present cost and low capacity of battery technology that presently limits free ranging electric vehicle.
But on a long term basis, to reduce pollution and the inevitable climate changes, etc. etc. we have to make changes n waht we are doing to the planet. So maybe on an average basis the transportation we will be using 50 years from now will be entirely different technology to the 100 year old gasoline reciprocating engine!
Maybe on a global basis a similar situation to that faced by cities (typically London UK) after WWII. There was terrible pollution due to the burning of coal. Every smog a certain number of people died. Buildings deteriorated due to the acid rain from coal smoke. Transportation was disrupted. Coal was gradually phased out and today it is a cleaner healthier city.
The historic river Thames was also badly polluted. By cleaning that river now has several previously threatened species reaching the upper parts of it.
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