OT: Hybrid cars make no economical sense

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snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

Hmmm, Current hybrid is political technology. What we need is alternate energy away from using fossil fuel and existing battery technology. Fuel cell? Hydrogen? Or something else we don't even know yet? See the forest not the tree. Over all improvement on fuel mileage on today's hybrid is 15 to 20% and at what cost? We can save that much if every one keeps their car tuned and maintained like watching the tire pressures, air filter, etc., etc. And old clunkers shouldn't be allowed on the road. I won't buy hybrid car, I'll buy a car made with real new technology. Big 3 failed big in developing next generation cars based on new energy source. America can do anything if she has will. Looking back, we made A-bomb during WWII in such a short time.
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Yes. There is the idea that we should strive to leave the world a better place than we found it. There is also the idea that our children and grandchildren will inherit a world that we created.
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On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:40:52 -0800 (PST), Miguel de Maria

Then you should be concerned about the ecological costs of manufacturing and disposing of those batteries
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wrote:

I don't see how that follows though, unless you mean that people are trying to do the right thing but not looking at the big picture.
nate
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The goal is to move toward more energy-efficient vehicles. Voting with your dollars to move encourage their production would seem to be part of the big picture of achieving it. But there are huge psychological, institutional, and at least some technological barriers to overcome. I don't see how attacking certain elements in the chain of their production, elements produced in our oil-based economy and thus necessarily unsustainable, should be a reason for criticizing the effort. No one, of course, should be sold a bill of goods. But driving SUVs and Hummers and denigrating the "hippies" who buy Priuses--that seems twisted to me.
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wrote:

I'm not saying drive a SUV or Hummer. But it is clear that it is actually more environmentally "correct" to simply keep driving whatever vehicle you currently own and maintaining it well to have a good long lifespan than it is to purchase a new hybrid. (think about it, how much energy does it take to produce a completely new vehicle, and where do you think that energy comes from?) Additionally, it is not clear that a hybrid makes sense, either financially or ecologially, when compared with a comparable conventional vehicle - at least at this time. Now if battery packs became smaller, lighter, had more capacity etc. that may not remain true in the future. Doubly so if that happens to the point where plug-in hybrids become practical.
nate
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There is that; I still am driving my 2003 Toyota Matrix, and have no immediate plans to replace it. Maybe my perception is skewed by the fact that 90% of my neighbors have gleaming 4 ton vehicles; one neighbor has 1 Hummer, 1 Escalade, and at least two F-150 size trucks in addition to his boat. I am regularly run off the road by a variety of Escalades of all colors and bed sizes, and Porsche Cheyennes blast past my slow-lane driving self almost every day. Noticeably, the Hummers came out when gas dropped close to $2.
However, given that cars are built with planned obsolescence, I think it's quite responsible to replace dying vehicles with a hybrid; again a vote for more of them and a way to encourage their development and the solving of these problems.
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wrote:

Dying vehicles, yes... I guess I'm probably not the person you're thinking of. I'm still driving my '88 model Porsche 944 and have no plans to replace it any time soon. There's reasons other than economy that I'm attached to it, like it's a kick in the pants to drive, but even so it is still far more economical than the pig of an Impala that my employer wants me to drive every day :( I do have to confess to owning a F-150 as well, and it is a thirsty beast, but I probably drive it once a month if that, and that only because leaving a vehicle set is not good for it.
That all said, I'm still not sold that buying a new hybrid is any more responsible than, say, a Jetta TDI and if I were a betting man I'd bet on the TDI having a longer service life and lower maintenance costs as well (note that I am speaking from the perspective of someone who considers a 10 year old car "new.")
nate
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The TDI's are good, friend of mine has one, it's about 10 years old and runs and drives great, gets excellent fuel economy, though the quality of the exterior trim leaves something to be desired.
Glad I'm not the only one who thinks late 90s sounds "new", even my '84 242T doesn't feel particularly old to me, it was a bit of a shock actually when I realized that it will be 25 years old the next time it needs tabs, at which point it is emissions exempt, not that I would expect it to fail anyway. At any rate, comfy, dependable, 25 mph, with enough torque and adequate suspension to tow a small ski boat, and an all around pleasure to drive. No plans to replace it unless it gets totaled. I'm the sort who sticks with something until it no longer adequately meets my needs, I don't replace things simply because they're "old".
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James Sweet wrote:

Erm, make that 25 mpg.
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Dying vehicles, yes... I guess I'm probably not the person you're thinking of. I'm still driving my '88 model Porsche 944 and have no plans to replace it any time soon. There's reasons other than economy that I'm attached to it, like it's a kick in the pants to drive, but even so it is still far more economical than the pig of an Impala that my employer wants me to drive every day :( I do have to confess to owning a F-150 as well, and it is a thirsty beast, but I probably drive it once a month if that, and that only because leaving a vehicle set is not good for it.
That all said, I'm still not sold that buying a new hybrid is any more responsible than, say, a Jetta TDI and if I were a betting man I'd bet on the TDI having a longer service life and lower maintenance costs as well (note that I am speaking from the perspective of someone who considers a 10 year old car "new.")
Obviously you have never owned a Volkswagon product.
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Art wrote:

I've had at least four that I recall. Best cars I've ever owned. Favorite was an '84 Scirocco that I sold with 240K miles on it, still ran like a new car. Sold it because I simply had too many cars and living in PG County my insurance was out of control even for liability only. Still regret it.
nate
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Art wrote:

I did. The starter motor gave out on my '57 model, so I went to the dealer for a replacement. "Don't have it," said the parts room. "I do have one for the current '63 model. Don't worry, it'll fit - bolt for bolt."
It did.
One of these days I'll tell the story of how my brand new Ford came factory-equipped with a Delco alternator.
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wrote:

I knew someone with a VW Golf. He had LOTS of trouble with it. He started a project where he saved all the bad parts. His goal was to eventually build an entire, non-working Golf.
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Hybrids do not necessarily need to be electric. The battery is only to not waste the energy used in stop and go traffic. It is a waste of money to use a larger battery than is needed to do just that. enough energy storage to keep the highway and stop and go driving the same is optimum. The edison battery lasts up to 80 years. the ultra capacitor lasts just as long. The energy storage could also be hydrualic. The ideal is to replace conventional vehicles as they wear out.
Bob

I'm not saying drive a SUV or Hummer. But it is clear that it is actually more environmentally "correct" to simply keep driving whatever vehicle you currently own and maintaining it well to have a good long lifespan than it is to purchase a new hybrid. (think about it, how much energy does it take to produce a completely new vehicle, and where do you think that energy comes from?) Additionally, it is not clear that a hybrid makes sense, either financially or ecologially, when compared with a comparable conventional vehicle - at least at this time. Now if battery packs became smaller, lighter, had more capacity etc. that may not remain true in the future. Doubly so if that happens to the point where plug-in hybrids become practical.
nate
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Miguel de Maria wrote:

Or not. Clueless Rick Wagoner who wants us to bail him out thinks making hybrid fluffed up truck escalades is a great idea.
Voting

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He thinks $50,000 for a Chevy Volt is a good idea too. Good thing plug-in cars wont be affordable, a national fleet of plug ins will shift the energy modality from oil directly to coal (a much dirtier fuel) considering most power is from coal. These guys just want the cash and dont seem to care if that means politicians will now decide how to run the company and design the cars.
I say give them 1 billion each now with this deal... They must take that billion, enter chapter 11, then proove that they came up with an additional 10 billion in savings in 6 months (or whatever amount of savings they come up with), by re-writing all supplier and union contracts. If they can do that then the govt should maybe match those savings at 50% with a no-interest loan at the end of the 6 months. That match would then be used to take them out of chapter 11 in the next 6 months. With this deal they have to actually work for the matching funds, plan for the payback and exit chapter 11 in one year, smaller but viable. The loan would be repaid in year two.
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RickH wrote:

Yes, they need the kick in the pants of bankruptcy to wake them up and make them competitive. Thats why we have bankruptcy laws.
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Miguel de Maria wrote:

Choosing to have fewer or no children will have a far greater positive effect on the world than will the use of any type of hybrid vehicle.
HellT
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Euro-Islam.
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