OT. How much does it cost the average American (family) for health care insurance.

[Ed Pawlowski]

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Some are, most are not. At least the ones with influence.

From a humanitarian standpoint, I'd like to see everyone get good care when needed. From a personal standpoint, I have excellent coverage at minimal cost to me. So it is difficult to get the tens of thousands like me that have good care to want to change. What we need is some good information.

First is cost. You state your care is paid for by taxes. By covering everyone that has nothing right now, there will be some savings as the local hospital is charging me more to cover the ones that will not pay. What are the differences? Until I can see number, I'm not willing to pay a lot of additional taxes.

Lastly, who is covered? I'm willing to pay a little more to assist those in need, the low income family or those that cannot work due to physical or mental problems. I'm not willing to pay to cover some lazy ass that is not contributing to the system.

[Han]

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in news:ivWdnZmJ-6DIHgHXnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

I really likes this "video":

I do think that basic health insurance should be like basic fire protection. More insurance should be available at reasonable cost. If you never paid insurance for a procedure or disease until you needed that protection, the cost should be higher to you than if you had paid the insurance from the start.

[Phisherman]

Hospitals buy a pair of rubber gloves for 3 cents, and sell it to the patient for $5. A box of Klennex tissues sold by the hospital is $13. A hospital has a separate department for billing and another for collections. I have seen a billing department with over 80 employees for just one hospital. Will the government fix this? Or, maybe the government needs to stop trying to fix things.

[Percival P. Cassidy]

One guy, after he had already lost his house because of his enormous hospital bills. started checking those bills more thoroughly. The "mucus retrieval kit" for which he had been billed $78.xx turned out to be a box of Kleenex.

So do we just let the foxes continue to (pretend to) guard the hen house?

Perce

[Anonymous]

In American hospitals, them that pays, pay for them that don't pay !

Federal law requires hospitals to treat anyone that shows up at the door..... What percentage do you think pay for treatment ?

Hospitals in many Arizona towns have been put out of business by Mexicans who come across the border for treatment, then slip back across the border when discharged.....

We joke that the US border patrol could solve much of the illegals problem ( and help the hospitals too ) just by patrolling the Emergency Rooms !

[cshenk]

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote

This is the crux Ed. We arent getting good information and partly it's because they are still formulating the plan.

My main dislike is we won't get to vote on it as a populace. I think this time, that really *should* happen. I also have a funny feeling this is the one time many of us *would* vote in a higher tax to pay for something, if it were explained.

Other countries with this can range from tax rates like ours (but they do not have the other extras we do have, far too numerous to mention) to 60% in taxes (often with the main difference between them and us being a smaller military and somewhat more reliance on 'international assistance' for expensive things like being able to tell if a tsumani is about to whack you in the ass).

I am not aware of any other country with 'free health care' who plans to also provide it to illegal aliens who pay no taxes.

Grin, illegal aliens for one. I personally have 'issues' with that. I have no issue with a person who moves here on a green card (or gets one later) and files for citizenship. My own grandparents on one side came over in

1915 (legally) and I've worked with many wonderful Americans who's citizenship papers are barely dry. They benefit us and pay taxes just like you and I do and have the same right as I do to all we have to offer.

Be prepared. Most folks outside the USA, think of illegal aliens by their own numbers and they may have a few. Like, 1,000 or so (Canada runs much higher). Most of theirs in the advanced countries of Europe etc, arent in the same class as they were allowed in under a quota and in the USA, we call them refugees and accord them that name. (Lexography of American vs British english pertains).

[Ed Pawlowski]

If the hospital was getting paid by everyone that uses it, they would not have to charge those prices. That is what is not clear in any of the reform issues I've seen so far. It can possibly work if administered properly.

Hypothetical case: My insurance premium is $700 a month. I go to the hospital and I'm charged $5000 for a procedure and stay, all covered by insurance. No out of pocket cost to me.

Joe Lazyinski goes to the hospital for the same procedure. No insurance, the hospital writes off his tab and takes some of the money I paid to keep afloat.

Now the government steps in and gives "free" care to everyone. My insurance (optional) drops to $350 a month, but I pay an extra $100 in taxes to cover everyone else for "free". I have a net savings

I go in for the same hypothetical procedure, but the bill is only $2500 because that is all they need. Joe Lazyinski goes in and has his procedure and B. Obama sends a check for $2500 to the hospital.

Hospital gets the same total $$$, but from two sources. Everyone wins.

What scares me is that I'm still going to pay the high premium and even higher taxes and healthcare is still crappy for the masses.

[Ed Pawlowski]

But they still want our support. I want some facts.

Agree

Think of the children.

[stan]

Yes we have some problems with "Americans who come across the border too ...... !". At least in future, at the insistence of the US Dept. of Security, everyone will have a passport. And they will need it to get back into the States.

And talking about a 3 cent pair of gloves; if that's what they cost that's what they cost; here there is no 'billing the customer' at an inflated rate. The 3 cent's is just part of the cost of running the hospital. And with the oversight of government to control costs etc. the hospitals have considerable purchasing power to keep the costs of rubber gloves and/or drugs down to reasonable level!

That sort of thing is another reason that overhead admin. costs of the Canadian system are around 4%. In the USA it's around 20%.

We have all heard about the standard hammer that costs Uncle Sam's military forces $125!

Went for blood test the other day, the plastic card showed that I am a resident/taxpayer of this part of Canada. If I was resident of another province I would have been treated just the same and there would some sort sort of settlement between the two provinces.

[Percival P. Cassidy]

A couple years ago I was searching on line for some hinges. I found one supplier who claimed to specialize in supplying the Federal Govt. They had hinges the same as I had bought already at Lowe's (same manufacturer, same part number) -- but the price was at least 5 times higher.

Perce

[Kurt Ullman]

They may charge those prices but they seldom get them, even for self-pay. It is an inflated price because they know that the insurance companies will knock it down by so much. IIRC MCare also uses list prices somewhere in their cogitating on what they will pay the hospitals. But MCare is not negotiated, it is take it or leave it.

[Kurt Ullman]

Largely to cover the extra costs of going through the government procurement procedures. They might have been the same, but the government often requires a line of tests to make sure that it really is what it says it is. And don't even get me started on mil spec.

[HeyBub]

Plus, to sell to the government, you have to certify you don't discriminate, pay "prevailaing wages," undergo background checks, and donate to your local congressman's re-election campaign.

All these drive up the cost of doing business.

[HeyBub]

The difference is, of course, that the entire Lazyinski clan and everybody they ever knew is in for the same procedure. You are number 8,233 on the waiting list.

Come back a year from next Tuesday.

[The Daring Dufas]

Years ago, a friend of mine who worked on medical equipment showed me a screw for an X-ray machine that had a price of $25.00. I could go to a hardware supplier and buy the same grade 8 socket head screw for 25 cents. The reason for the high cost of the X-ray machine screw was all the extensive certifications and testing along with a traceable paperwork trail. I think the paperwork weighed more than a box of 100 screws.

TDD

[cshenk]

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote

Me too.

Same synch there.

I actually can deal with that. Kids, ok with me. What I don't want is a flood of illegal aliens treking here just before the bambino comes out, for free care then going back home to Mom 'wherever outside the USA that is'. Meantime, a USA citizen who really needed ultrasound (used for more than checking fetal health BTW), was unable to get it because the services were flooded and got the 'please call back later, all appointments are taken'.

I'm probably not explaining it well, but my gut feeling is if we do this, we start first with just citizens, with something for *children* who arent yet but may be one day.

[Phisherman]

Those screws are cheap. I have three screws in my leg, $650 each.

[The Daring Dufas]

I can't imagine all the paperwork, certifications and testing that involved those screws.

TDD

[Kurt Ullman]

IIRC they have to be able to match a specific serial numbered screw to a specific patient for recall purposes.

[The Daring Dufas]

A sneaky way to give you The Mark Of The Beast, serial numbers on all your medical implants. *snicker*

TDD