(Celebate? My speeling checker is seek)
Indeed. Maybe they could work as gay marriage counselors?
What's surprised me a lot in the last decade was how many cases there were
of men abucting children and forcing them to live as slaves. I think there
have been five or six sensational cases in just the last few years. Do
these ideas spawn from the minds of the mentally ill out of nothingness or
do they see something like "Silence of the Lambs" and say "hmm, a slave pit
seems like a great idea!" Why don't these kids run away sooner? Many seem
to have been able to leave and get help, but didn't. We live in a very
I had a protestant friend of mine who couldn't get married by their
preferred pastor until they had gone to a pre-marriage retreat. Their PP
had been married 3 times and was currently between wives. They decided
this was a seminar on what NOT to do.
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
Stress can bother a lot of systems, especially heart and immune sys.
Backs? I dunno. Who doesn't have stress? I'd bet a majority of folks
with bad backs are overweight and out of shape....obesity and a big
belly change the way the back works entirely. Bulging discs come with
age, and many are never a problem. I'm not harping on weight for folks
who have organic bone and nerve problems! A lot of beginning disc
problems, even ruptured discs, can be effectively resolved with physical
therapy, exercise and weight control; but then, often enough they can be
I've had three seriously painful back injuries...one, bending over to
clean the bath tub and two lifting patients. No physician treatment,
just ice, then heat, and anti-inflam. The last one was probably a torn
ligament, because the pain was not sore muscle. Doing fine now.
Not me when I had my first back problem. I was in my 20's and never fitter
but I was under extreme stress and that tenses all your muscles. You must
know the phrase "God protects drunks" when applied to car accidents. If you
tense up before the collision, your injuries are likely to be more severe
than a drunk's because they don't anticipate, tense up and then absorb the
energy of the crash as a "stiffened" system.
At least that's what the EMT's explained to me when they hauled out drunks
from crushed cars with no injuries but pulled sober people from uncrushed
cars with serious musculoskeletal injury. I'm certainly willing to be
disabused of that belief except for the fact that my "degenerate" <g> disks
act up when I am over-extending myself with too much to do or worry about.
I start to break out in small muscle spasms my wife calls "egg yolks"
because that's there size and shape. She can massage them away -
sometimes - but they often presage that horrible feeling that I just took an
arrow in my lower back.
(Oddly enough thinking about that brought back memories of the first
multiple fatality accident I covered as a rookie police reporter and the
drunken, unscathed driver of the "murder car" coming up to me, reeking of
alcohol, begging me (not sure why) to forgive him. I have never felt more
contempt for a fellow human being in my entire life. Only one infant
survived because she had been thrown into the area behind the driver's seat,
one of the last places to crumple in a catastrophic accident.
Even the state trooper who responded (a rookie too) was overwhelmed by the
carnage and retched after ascertaining there were no life signs among the
victims. He had to look in the car. I didn't. For which I am eternally
thankful. It took the EMTs to find the little girl who never made a peep,
oddly enough. Thank God they were so thorough in removing the victim's
bodies and searching the car. That memory of how disgusted I was with that
drunk driver is causing my back to tense up. Darn you Norminn! <G> )
<<Unwanted feelings -- such as frustration, resentment, and stress -- are
often a result. These feelings and emotions can worsen your back pain. . . .
The mind and body work together -- they cannot be separated. The way your
mind controls thoughts and attitudes affects the way your body controls pain
. . . Pain itself, and the fear of pain, can cause you to avoid both
physical and social activities. Over time this leads to less physical
strength and weaker social relationships. It can also cause further lack of
functioning and pain.>>
Lack of a good night's sleep from stress is all it takes for some people
with previous back problems to have a recurrence, IMHO. At least, BTDT!
I was relating the issue to my own stress symptoms....NEVER get
headaches, but get ocular migraines (painless visual symptoms) now and
then. Doc says stress, but they really don't occur at the worst times :o)
In my days in the OR, I kept mental track of the victims of AA and
arrived at about 50% being due to drunks; the drunks were much less
often the patient needing surgery.
One of the least stressful jobs I had was working in drug/alcohol rehab;
it was pretty awesome. I was thanked, a few years later, for saving one
guy's life because of a talk we had one night. Well, he was doing the
work :o) We had a local judge who would rather send folks to treatment
than to jail, so it was good for a number of people. Not everyone.
Drunks and mean SOBs usually need help because life tends not to treat
them well from early on.
Look on the bright side...did it keep you from ever driving under the
influence? What are you doing about muscle spasms? Got a firm
mattress? Normal weight? Exercise?
I have found that gardening is my best stress relief...plant something,
care for it, watch it grow/change, look forward to what it will be. Or
join the YMCA, swim some laps or do stationary bike; great low-impact
exercise for backs.
Gotcha. Stress hits people in different ways but it really has an effect.
My dad had a TIA in the car during a fight with his older brother about
where they were going. Dad worked for notorious tyrant boss Hyman Rickover,
father of the nuclear navy and a man who did not just scream at
subordinates, he tried to break them. Dad always said that Rickover gave
him the first of his two heart attacks.
That was certainly my experience. They just flopped around in the cars like
ragdolls and didn't get the kind of injuries that come from bracing yourself
hard against an auto body that's about to collapse. It really disgusted me
at how much death and injury drunk drivers cause and how often they escape
the immediate consequences.
It's a self-perpetuating cycle. My the daughter of my former boss is a
bright, beautiful young woman but she's already a serious alcoholic as were
both her parents. I've had to work with her to help move her dad to
assisted living and it's very hard for me given my experience with
Er, no. It took a "flat spin" on the Capital Beltway at 60mph after four
vodka collinses to have that little talk with God. Haven't gone near a car
anything but stone sober since the time God or some mysterious force saved
my life that day. I still don't remember why I thought I was perfectly
capable of driving. That's the problem with alcohol. A false sense of
I had a nightmare last night about that guy blubbering "forgive me" that
horrible night. I think I am troubled by how little empathy I felt for him
when in reality, I could have killed a bunch of people the one time I drove
plastered. I have mini-flashbacks whenever I am standing close enough to
someone to smell alcohol on their breath. That crash bothers me to this day
and unlike that poor retching rookie trooper, I didn't look in the car
(papers don't ever show those kinds of photos so there wasn't much point to
Got a wife who knows how to massage them away and dog that keeps me active
and reduces my stress.
I would garden more but there's something about me that makes bugs adore me,
and I have every insect repellent known to man. Bees, wasps, chiggers,
gnats, noseeums - anything you can name including ticks. I guess I was born
a city boy and I'll die one. Then the bugs will have their way with me for
In most cases, you buy insurance because there are events that would cause
severe financial hardship like the totaling of a car, the death of your
family's bread winner, or the destruction of your house.
Because of the bipartisan tax subsidy granted health insurance employers
provide essentially all healthcare from basic health maintenance and symptom
relief to the most expensive life-saving procedures, and they do it because
the government massively subsidizes this approach.
You don't expect your auto insurer to fill up your car with gas or pay for
an oil change, or your homeowner's insurance company to change a furnace
filter. Why do you go to your health insurance company for everyday medical
services? Because it's not really what we consider insurance, it is
tax-subsidized provision of all your healthcare needs that causes two big
problems: Health coverage is tied to your employer and consumers are
insulated from the cost of basic healthcare because they don't pay directly
So of course when a doctor recommends an expensive procedure for a dying
parent, you're much more likely to accede to the operation if it's not
coming out of your pocket. Don't quite know how we can fix that, though.
On Friday, August 16, 2013 11:19:16 PM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
A classic non sequitur. I've yet to work for an employer where
my health insurance coverage included paying for dying parents.
They are usually covered by ummmm, let' see, that govt program
And apparently you can't make everyone happy, even among you libs.
Some of you here are arguing strongly that we need more routine
medical care, more early treatment, more preventative intervention.
Yet here you are complaining because companies that provide it
for their employees get a tax break. I suppose when the govt does it
directly, then it would be peachy keen.
I don't think it *IS* fixable. Not without some sort of huge, traumatic
social/political upheavel at least. Its like everything else: once you've
got it, it becomes a necessity and a "right".
For most of my life health insurance was something that individuals
purchased. I don't recall there being all that many companies selling it
either (my memory may be faulty on that)...there was Blue Cross...the Kaiser
Personally, I chose to buy a major medical plan with a hefty deductible
(about $5000 in 2013 money) and pay the regular stuff myself. Worked out
fine; the major medical wasn't particularly expensive and was there if I
needed it (only once).
Things changed when I became a corporation; the state insisted I insure all
employees - I was an employee too - for everything including the mundane.
Like splinter removal. My costs tripled and I don't recall any sort of
government subsidy other than it being a business expense.
It seems to me that what we need is more people willing to tell the
government to take a hike, I'll take care of myself, thank you. The problem
is that there are now so many people that don't think that way and *WON'T*
take care of themselves. How to keep them from being a drain on the rest?
Tell them to FOAD? Require purchase of a major medical? Auto insurance is
required, why not that? And even though auto insurance is required, many
people don't have it. There has always been - and always will be - a
certain percentage of people that are socially irresponsible; in the past,
they were more or less left to fend for themselves or to charity. Maybe
FOAD isn't such a bad thing :)
Nature seems to deal those out every half century or so. It could be in the
cards. I expect the problems in Egypt to get much, much worse. Iraq is
descending into sectarian violence as well. The irony of us fighting the
Islamacists is that they don't need our help at all. Sunnis and Shias will
destroy each other - FREE! Why not let them?
The ratchet effect. It's very pervasive and as you point very difficult to
overcome. I think it's why the D's realized they had to get something
passed that had tangible benefits, like no lifetime limits and no refusal to
take pre-existing conditions. While both are morally fine things to want,
the reality on the ground about how to pay for such largesse is not quite so
good. Those "gifts" require a huge pool of insured to spread the risk
around sufficiently and that's the problem.
What I remember most is how concerned my *parents* were that I buy health
insurance at a time in my life (early 20's) when I rarely saw a doctor and
didn't feel the need to get it. Many kids still feel that way. That's why
the "coat tailing" on a parent's insurance was also introduced with the ACA.
Once people face losing these benefits, the hope is that they'll finally get
behind the ACA. I am not sure those three items (no caps, no pre-existing
limits and kids staying on their parent's policy) are enough to swing it.
The law is an abomination of complexity.
Is major medical still available?
While this probably brands me a lib, I favor a basic level of care
*provided* by the state instead of the state doing what they did to you.
We're paying for indigent and uninsured health care anyway. That's partly
because of the emergency room visits that cause the uninsured to run up huge
bills when some early treatment might have headed off the crisis. I also
don't want the fry cook at Wendies to come to work with Lhassa fever
(hyperbole alert!) and infect my entire community because he had no basic
In defense of my liberal bent on *some* things, I have very conservative
views on others. I often tell my liberals friends that I think that a woman
should have to volunteer for a tubal ligation if she wants any government
welfare support for her child. It horrifies them so much their panties wad
up and get sucked way up into their colon. (-: My only indecision on that
plan is whether you draw the line at the first baby or the second.
Haven't you heard the blood-curdling screams of the people who are going to
be forced to buy health insurance under ACA or be penalized? (-: I agree
with your sentiments but that ship has sailed and universal healthcare is
coming like a runaway freight train. The only question is who gets killed
when it leaves the rails? Other countries (many of our allies) have done it
without going bankrupt or creating a nation of slackers. When I saw a
Wal-mart employee indoctrination form explaining how workers who weren't
being given healthcare could apply form Medicaid, I knew "the fix was in."
However you and I can buy uninsured motorist coverage to protect ourselves
against the dipwads that drive without insurance. How do we handle the
dipwads who don't believe they need health insurance and end up going on
SSDI, SSI or Medicaid when they finally get their first major heart attack
and need expensive medical care? Short of FOAD, that is. (-:
Someone in this thread mentioned whether a smoker should get a new
government purchased lung and that go me to thinking. We could apportion
levels of care based on good citizenship. If you ever got arrested for
drunk driving, no liver transplant for you. Busted for heroin? No heart
transplant. That might even create an incentive for better behavior (though
I doubt it). Drive drunk and you're going to hospice when your liver fails
from cirrhosis, not to the transplant wing. I would sanction that far
sooner than FOAD. (-:
We bail out the investment banks, we spend blood and treasure fighting the
enemies of our allies - the moral hazards are already in place across the
board. If American tax dollars are going to be spent, I'd prefer they be
spent on Americans and American infrastructure and not payoffs to foreign
banks or "free military care" for sick nations all over the world.
Yay!! UHC is long overdue. The con/lib arguements will continue to echo
as people slowly find out that they pay for healthcare from the right
pocket or the left....pay higher prices for goods and services from
companies (fewer and fewer) who insure their employees, pay higher taxes
for M'care/M'caid, pay higher fees for your own care to
docs/hospitals/med device makers so they can pick a number to hit you
with and let the wealth trickle down. If you have no health care, wait
till you are REALLY damn sick, take a $3K ambulance ride to the hospital
for a $500K stay while they do their damndest to run a tab, give you an
infection or the wrong med and possibly save your life.
There was a person writing one of the financial self-help books who
made (the very valid point) that the poor plan for next week whilst the
rich plan for the next generation. I think this outlook is one of the
major reasons (up to a point) that one is rich and another is poor
(anoher wag noted that the first $100 million is hard, the second $100
There is ample evidence that this applies to healthcare as well.
Many studies show that even those who have MCaid don't take advantage of
the annual physicals, etc., available through the plan. They don't see
any reason, don't think it is worth their while, etc. You can lead a
person to healthcare, but you can't make them partake.
Heck even among the middle class, many don't take advantage of
Maybe something reversible so that she could reproduce again if she
was off welfare for a certain amount of time (grin).
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
Perhaps they hired IRS consultants to help draft it :)
I have no idea, I am now busy sucking government teat (Medicare). Lets
see...what can i get fixed next? Maybe my other ctaract.
I've always thought one free but I'm willing to change my mind.
I also wouldn't be askance at putting some sort of contraceptive in drinking
water (hey, they put fluoride). If someone wants to get pregnant they have
to show financial responsibility to get the antidote. And drinking bootleg
water to get pregnant would be a capitol crime :)
That has always - and still does - strike me as wierd. We are obligated to
buy insurance but have to pay extra to protect ourselves from the scofflaws.
Seems to me that if the state can't/won't enforce their law thenTHEY are the
ones that should be paying for injuries/damage due to their negligence.
Of course, we can always sue the non-insured offender who in all likelihood
hasn't a pot to piss in. There is something to be said for debtor's prisons
and/or indentured servitude.
Actually, that's not too bad an idea. Everyone starts with a certain level
of health care credit; various infractions deduct from it. Need something
that costs more than you have left? Things are tough all over, maybe there
is enough left to get them a ticket to someplace where whatever is needed is
cheaper (assuming enough is left after taking out the ticket cost). That is
still sort of FOAD, just do it elsewhere :)
Medicare with a good supplement is a good deal, though not cheap. For
my wife and I we pay $693 a month everything combined Since we
started a couple of years ago, she had a couple of major surgeries and
procedures. Total billing was over $100,000. My total out of pocket
for it all was $0.
No co-pay, no deductible. Only thing out of pocket is prescription
co-pays. most are $4.
Our old company plan was $800 (company paid) plus co-pays for lots of
things. The above would have been probably $2000+ from me.
We went the Medicare Advantage route. No supplement needed, they return the
$100+- medicare part "B"(?) premium that the gov takes out of social
security, $25 copay for specialist, $0 for the relatively few meds I take.
This is another part of the system that drives up costs and adds to
demand (which drives up costs because of the barriers to supply such as
med school and residency). I submit that we haven't had health
**insurance** (defined as taking a major, but relatively rare risk and
spreading it among many people) since the demise of the old major
I think HSAs do the trick. They give you a tax free way to take care
of the minor stuff, save up for the big stuff, and then pay for it.
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
On Friday, August 16, 2013 8:19:16 PM UTC-7, Robert Green wrote:
I thought you'd never ask, Bobby <G>
Big Pharma and Big Insurance and Big Medicine are ALL linked to the w****s
in Congress who pay them off -- via "campaign contributions" and post-Congr
ess revolving-door jobs -- to put profits ahead of people. The Citizens Un
ited decision by the corporate wing of the Roberts Court codified the abili
ty of Our Corporate Masters to pour their money into elections with no acco
People dump on capitalism because they haven't studied how a perfectly usef
ul contributing part of society has been corrupted over the past 40+ years
into a private piggy-bank for thieves, with the connivance of our elected r
Who sits in Congress? How did they get there? Didn't SOMEBODY vote for th
Was it YOU? Or your friends? Associates?
Or did most people either not bother to vote out of disgust, disillusionmen
t or ignorance? Why do decent people not come forward to populate the thir
d branch of government? Is a terrifying percentage of the American elector
ate so ignorant that they don't know -- or care - how the lobbyists work Co
ngress? How redistricting corruptly favors [Party], creating safe seats?
How private money now floods into the system, thanks to the SCOTUS' above-m
entioned Citizens United decision.
The system IS broken. Let's face it. It will take years, maybe generations
, to fix it -- IF there is the will. Even though some of us are on the pre
carious edge of things, most of us still have a roof over our heads, food i
n our bellies, medical coverage. It is virtually impossible for us to unde
rstand how people can sicken and die from lack of medical care in such a ri
ch society ***where health care is commodified instead of treated as a publ
Gotta say I'm a little disappointed, though not really surprised, that this
thread drifted into anecdotal material instead of addressing the basic iss
ue of health care commodification. It's at the root of the matter, whethe
r from a pocket-book POV (major $$ saved down the road by early interventio
n) or a human rights POV (OK, I think he's a lazy bum but he's still a huma
n being; who am I (ping Pope Francis) to judge him).
Society works better when people are healthy, can work, can pay taxes, can
contribute their brains and creativity.
The 1% doesn't give a fracking fig as long as they get theirs.
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