OT: Health insurance

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(Celebate? My speeling checker is seek)

Indeed. Maybe they could work as gay marriage counselors?
What's surprised me a lot in the last decade was how many cases there were of men abucting children and forcing them to live as slaves. I think there have been five or six sensational cases in just the last few years. Do these ideas spawn from the minds of the mentally ill out of nothingness or do they see something like "Silence of the Lambs" and say "hmm, a slave pit seems like a great idea!" Why don't these kids run away sooner? Many seem to have been able to leave and get help, but didn't. We live in a very strange world.
--
Bobby G.



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On 8/17/2013 12:48 AM, Wes Groleau wrote:

My older brother attended a seminary for training Catholic priests but he changed his mind when puberty hit and he got interested in girls. ^_^
TDD
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I had a protestant friend of mine who couldn't get married by their preferred pastor until they had gone to a pre-marriage retreat. Their PP had been married 3 times and was currently between wives. They decided this was a seminar on what NOT to do.
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On 8/16/2013 7:02 PM, Robert Green wrote:

Stress can bother a lot of systems, especially heart and immune sys. Backs? I dunno. Who doesn't have stress? I'd bet a majority of folks with bad backs are overweight and out of shape....obesity and a big belly change the way the back works entirely. Bulging discs come with age, and many are never a problem. I'm not harping on weight for folks who have organic bone and nerve problems! A lot of beginning disc problems, even ruptured discs, can be effectively resolved with physical therapy, exercise and weight control; but then, often enough they can be surgical emergencies.
I've had three seriously painful back injuries...one, bending over to clean the bath tub and two lifting patients. No physician treatment, just ice, then heat, and anti-inflam. The last one was probably a torn ligament, because the pain was not sore muscle. Doing fine now.
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<stuff snipped>

Not me when I had my first back problem. I was in my 20's and never fitter but I was under extreme stress and that tenses all your muscles. You must know the phrase "God protects drunks" when applied to car accidents. If you tense up before the collision, your injuries are likely to be more severe than a drunk's because they don't anticipate, tense up and then absorb the energy of the crash as a "stiffened" system.
At least that's what the EMT's explained to me when they hauled out drunks from crushed cars with no injuries but pulled sober people from uncrushed cars with serious musculoskeletal injury. I'm certainly willing to be disabused of that belief except for the fact that my "degenerate" <g> disks act up when I am over-extending myself with too much to do or worry about. I start to break out in small muscle spasms my wife calls "egg yolks" because that's there size and shape. She can massage them away - sometimes - but they often presage that horrible feeling that I just took an arrow in my lower back.
(Oddly enough thinking about that brought back memories of the first multiple fatality accident I covered as a rookie police reporter and the drunken, unscathed driver of the "murder car" coming up to me, reeking of alcohol, begging me (not sure why) to forgive him. I have never felt more contempt for a fellow human being in my entire life. Only one infant survived because she had been thrown into the area behind the driver's seat, one of the last places to crumple in a catastrophic accident.
Even the state trooper who responded (a rookie too) was overwhelmed by the carnage and retched after ascertaining there were no life signs among the victims. He had to look in the car. I didn't. For which I am eternally thankful. It took the EMTs to find the little girl who never made a peep, oddly enough. Thank God they were so thorough in removing the victim's bodies and searching the car. That memory of how disgusted I was with that drunk driver is causing my back to tense up. Darn you Norminn! <G> )
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/patientinstructions/000417.htm
<<Unwanted feelings -- such as frustration, resentment, and stress -- are often a result. These feelings and emotions can worsen your back pain. . . . The mind and body work together -- they cannot be separated. The way your mind controls thoughts and attitudes affects the way your body controls pain . . . Pain itself, and the fear of pain, can cause you to avoid both physical and social activities. Over time this leads to less physical strength and weaker social relationships. It can also cause further lack of functioning and pain.>>
Lack of a good night's sleep from stress is all it takes for some people with previous back problems to have a recurrence, IMHO. At least, BTDT! (-:
--
Bobby G.



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On 8/16/2013 10:17 PM, Robert Green wrote:

I was relating the issue to my own stress symptoms....NEVER get headaches, but get ocular migraines (painless visual symptoms) now and then. Doc says stress, but they really don't occur at the worst times :o)

In my days in the OR, I kept mental track of the victims of AA and arrived at about 50% being due to drunks; the drunks were much less often the patient needing surgery.
One of the least stressful jobs I had was working in drug/alcohol rehab; it was pretty awesome. I was thanked, a few years later, for saving one guy's life because of a talk we had one night. Well, he was doing the work :o) We had a local judge who would rather send folks to treatment than to jail, so it was good for a number of people. Not everyone. Drunks and mean SOBs usually need help because life tends not to treat them well from early on.

Look on the bright side...did it keep you from ever driving under the influence? What are you doing about muscle spasms? Got a firm mattress? Normal weight? Exercise?
I have found that gardening is my best stress relief...plant something, care for it, watch it grow/change, look forward to what it will be. Or join the YMCA, swim some laps or do stationary bike; great low-impact exercise for backs.

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Gotcha. Stress hits people in different ways but it really has an effect. My dad had a TIA in the car during a fight with his older brother about where they were going. Dad worked for notorious tyrant boss Hyman Rickover, father of the nuclear navy and a man who did not just scream at subordinates, he tried to break them. Dad always said that Rickover gave him the first of his two heart attacks.
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That was certainly my experience. They just flopped around in the cars like ragdolls and didn't get the kind of injuries that come from bracing yourself hard against an auto body that's about to collapse. It really disgusted me at how much death and injury drunk drivers cause and how often they escape the immediate consequences.

It's a self-perpetuating cycle. My the daughter of my former boss is a bright, beautiful young woman but she's already a serious alcoholic as were both her parents. I've had to work with her to help move her dad to assisted living and it's very hard for me given my experience with alcoholics.

Er, no. It took a "flat spin" on the Capital Beltway at 60mph after four vodka collinses to have that little talk with God. Haven't gone near a car anything but stone sober since the time God or some mysterious force saved my life that day. I still don't remember why I thought I was perfectly capable of driving. That's the problem with alcohol. A false sense of competency.
I had a nightmare last night about that guy blubbering "forgive me" that horrible night. I think I am troubled by how little empathy I felt for him when in reality, I could have killed a bunch of people the one time I drove plastered. I have mini-flashbacks whenever I am standing close enough to someone to smell alcohol on their breath. That crash bothers me to this day and unlike that poor retching rookie trooper, I didn't look in the car (papers don't ever show those kinds of photos so there wasn't much point to looking).

Got a wife who knows how to massage them away and dog that keeps me active and reduces my stress.

I would garden more but there's something about me that makes bugs adore me, and I have every insect repellent known to man. Bees, wasps, chiggers, gnats, noseeums - anything you can name including ticks. I guess I was born a city boy and I'll die one. Then the bugs will have their way with me for sure. )-:
--
Bobby G.



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In most cases, you buy insurance because there are events that would cause severe financial hardship like the totaling of a car, the death of your family's bread winner, or the destruction of your house. Because of the bipartisan tax subsidy granted health insurance employers provide essentially all healthcare from basic health maintenance and symptom relief to the most expensive life-saving procedures, and they do it because the government massively subsidizes this approach.
You don't expect your auto insurer to fill up your car with gas or pay for an oil change, or your homeowner's insurance company to change a furnace filter. Why do you go to your health insurance company for everyday medical services? Because it's not really what we consider insurance, it is tax-subsidized provision of all your healthcare needs that causes two big problems: Health coverage is tied to your employer and consumers are insulated from the cost of basic healthcare because they don't pay directly for services.
So of course when a doctor recommends an expensive procedure for a dying parent, you're much more likely to accede to the operation if it's not coming out of your pocket. Don't quite know how we can fix that, though.
--

Bobby G.





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On Friday, August 16, 2013 11:19:16 PM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:

A classic non sequitur. I've yet to work for an employer where my health insurance coverage included paying for dying parents. They are usually covered by ummmm, let' see, that govt program called Medicare.
And apparently you can't make everyone happy, even among you libs. Some of you here are arguing strongly that we need more routine medical care, more early treatment, more preventative intervention. Yet here you are complaining because companies that provide it for their employees get a tax break. I suppose when the govt does it directly, then it would be peachy keen.
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I don't think it *IS* fixable. Not without some sort of huge, traumatic social/political upheavel at least. Its like everything else: once you've got it, it becomes a necessity and a "right".
For most of my life health insurance was something that individuals purchased. I don't recall there being all that many companies selling it either (my memory may be faulty on that)...there was Blue Cross...the Kaiser Plan...what else?
Personally, I chose to buy a major medical plan with a hefty deductible (about $5000 in 2013 money) and pay the regular stuff myself. Worked out fine; the major medical wasn't particularly expensive and was there if I needed it (only once).
Things changed when I became a corporation; the state insisted I insure all employees - I was an employee too - for everything including the mundane. Like splinter removal. My costs tripled and I don't recall any sort of government subsidy other than it being a business expense.
It seems to me that what we need is more people willing to tell the government to take a hike, I'll take care of myself, thank you. The problem is that there are now so many people that don't think that way and *WON'T* take care of themselves. How to keep them from being a drain on the rest? Tell them to FOAD? Require purchase of a major medical? Auto insurance is required, why not that? And even though auto insurance is required, many people don't have it. There has always been - and always will be - a certain percentage of people that are socially irresponsible; in the past, they were more or less left to fend for themselves or to charity. Maybe FOAD isn't such a bad thing :)
--

dadiOH
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Nature seems to deal those out every half century or so. It could be in the cards. I expect the problems in Egypt to get much, much worse. Iraq is descending into sectarian violence as well. The irony of us fighting the Islamacists is that they don't need our help at all. Sunnis and Shias will destroy each other - FREE! Why not let them?

The ratchet effect. It's very pervasive and as you point very difficult to overcome. I think it's why the D's realized they had to get something passed that had tangible benefits, like no lifetime limits and no refusal to take pre-existing conditions. While both are morally fine things to want, the reality on the ground about how to pay for such largesse is not quite so good. Those "gifts" require a huge pool of insured to spread the risk around sufficiently and that's the problem.

What I remember most is how concerned my *parents* were that I buy health insurance at a time in my life (early 20's) when I rarely saw a doctor and didn't feel the need to get it. Many kids still feel that way. That's why the "coat tailing" on a parent's insurance was also introduced with the ACA. Once people face losing these benefits, the hope is that they'll finally get behind the ACA. I am not sure those three items (no caps, no pre-existing limits and kids staying on their parent's policy) are enough to swing it. The law is an abomination of complexity.

Is major medical still available?

While this probably brands me a lib, I favor a basic level of care *provided* by the state instead of the state doing what they did to you. We're paying for indigent and uninsured health care anyway. That's partly because of the emergency room visits that cause the uninsured to run up huge bills when some early treatment might have headed off the crisis. I also don't want the fry cook at Wendies to come to work with Lhassa fever (hyperbole alert!) and infect my entire community because he had no basic health care.
In defense of my liberal bent on *some* things, I have very conservative views on others. I often tell my liberals friends that I think that a woman should have to volunteer for a tubal ligation if she wants any government welfare support for her child. It horrifies them so much their panties wad up and get sucked way up into their colon. (-: My only indecision on that plan is whether you draw the line at the first baby or the second.

Haven't you heard the blood-curdling screams of the people who are going to be forced to buy health insurance under ACA or be penalized? (-: I agree with your sentiments but that ship has sailed and universal healthcare is coming like a runaway freight train. The only question is who gets killed when it leaves the rails? Other countries (many of our allies) have done it without going bankrupt or creating a nation of slackers. When I saw a Wal-mart employee indoctrination form explaining how workers who weren't being given healthcare could apply form Medicaid, I knew "the fix was in."

However you and I can buy uninsured motorist coverage to protect ourselves against the dipwads that drive without insurance. How do we handle the dipwads who don't believe they need health insurance and end up going on SSDI, SSI or Medicaid when they finally get their first major heart attack and need expensive medical care? Short of FOAD, that is. (-:

Someone in this thread mentioned whether a smoker should get a new government purchased lung and that go me to thinking. We could apportion levels of care based on good citizenship. If you ever got arrested for drunk driving, no liver transplant for you. Busted for heroin? No heart transplant. That might even create an incentive for better behavior (though I doubt it). Drive drunk and you're going to hospice when your liver fails from cirrhosis, not to the transplant wing. I would sanction that far sooner than FOAD. (-:
We bail out the investment banks, we spend blood and treasure fighting the enemies of our allies - the moral hazards are already in place across the board. If American tax dollars are going to be spent, I'd prefer they be spent on Americans and American infrastructure and not payoffs to foreign banks or "free military care" for sick nations all over the world.
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On 8/18/2013 7:40 AM, Robert Green wrote:

Yay!! UHC is long overdue. The con/lib arguements will continue to echo as people slowly find out that they pay for healthcare from the right pocket or the left....pay higher prices for goods and services from companies (fewer and fewer) who insure their employees, pay higher taxes for M'care/M'caid, pay higher fees for your own care to docs/hospitals/med device makers so they can pick a number to hit you with and let the wealth trickle down. If you have no health care, wait till you are REALLY damn sick, take a $3K ambulance ride to the hospital for a $500K stay while they do their damndest to run a tab, give you an infection or the wrong med and possibly save your life.

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made (the very valid point) that the poor plan for next week whilst the rich plan for the next generation. I think this outlook is one of the major reasons (up to a point) that one is rich and another is poor (anoher wag noted that the first $100 million is hard, the second $100 million inevitable). There is ample evidence that this applies to healthcare as well. Many studies show that even those who have MCaid don't take advantage of the annual physicals, etc., available through the plan. They don't see any reason, don't think it is worth their while, etc. You can lead a person to healthcare, but you can't make them partake. Heck even among the middle class, many don't take advantage of these benefits.

was off welfare for a certain amount of time (grin).
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Perhaps they hired IRS consultants to help draft it :) __________________

I have no idea, I am now busy sucking government teat (Medicare). Lets see...what can i get fixed next? Maybe my other ctaract. __________________

I've always thought one free but I'm willing to change my mind.
I also wouldn't be askance at putting some sort of contraceptive in drinking water (hey, they put fluoride). If someone wants to get pregnant they have to show financial responsibility to get the antidote. And drinking bootleg water to get pregnant would be a capitol crime :) __________________

That has always - and still does - strike me as wierd. We are obligated to buy insurance but have to pay extra to protect ourselves from the scofflaws. Seems to me that if the state can't/won't enforce their law thenTHEY are the ones that should be paying for injuries/damage due to their negligence.
Of course, we can always sue the non-insured offender who in all likelihood hasn't a pot to piss in. There is something to be said for debtor's prisons and/or indentured servitude. ___________________________

Actually, that's not too bad an idea. Everyone starts with a certain level of health care credit; various infractions deduct from it. Need something that costs more than you have left? Things are tough all over, maybe there is enough left to get them a ticket to someplace where whatever is needed is cheaper (assuming enough is left after taking out the ticket cost). That is still sort of FOAD, just do it elsewhere :)

Wouldn't we all.
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wrote:

Medicare with a good supplement is a good deal, though not cheap. For my wife and I we pay $693 a month everything combined Since we started a couple of years ago, she had a couple of major surgeries and procedures. Total billing was over $100,000. My total out of pocket for it all was $0.
No co-pay, no deductible. Only thing out of pocket is prescription co-pays. most are $4.
Our old company plan was $800 (company paid) plus co-pays for lots of things. The above would have been probably $2000+ from me.
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wrote:

We went the Medicare Advantage route. No supplement needed, they return the $100+- medicare part "B"(?) premium that the gov takes out of social security, $25 copay for specialist, $0 for the relatively few meds I take.
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demand (which drives up costs because of the barriers to supply such as med school and residency). I submit that we haven't had health **insurance** (defined as taking a major, but relatively rare risk and spreading it among many people) since the demise of the old major medical coverage.

I think HSAs do the trick. They give you a tax free way to take care of the minor stuff, save up for the big stuff, and then pay for it.
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On Friday, August 16, 2013 8:19:16 PM UTC-7, Robert Green wrote:

I thought you'd never ask, Bobby <G>
Big Pharma and Big Insurance and Big Medicine are ALL linked to the w****s in Congress who pay them off -- via "campaign contributions" and post-Congr ess revolving-door jobs -- to put profits ahead of people. The Citizens Un ited decision by the corporate wing of the Roberts Court codified the abili ty of Our Corporate Masters to pour their money into elections with no acco untability.
People dump on capitalism because they haven't studied how a perfectly usef ul contributing part of society has been corrupted over the past 40+ years into a private piggy-bank for thieves, with the connivance of our elected r epresentatives.
Who sits in Congress? How did they get there? Didn't SOMEBODY vote for th em? Was it YOU? Or your friends? Associates?
Or did most people either not bother to vote out of disgust, disillusionmen t or ignorance? Why do decent people not come forward to populate the thir d branch of government? Is a terrifying percentage of the American elector ate so ignorant that they don't know -- or care - how the lobbyists work Co ngress? How redistricting corruptly favors [Party], creating safe seats? How private money now floods into the system, thanks to the SCOTUS' above-m entioned Citizens United decision.
The system IS broken. Let's face it. It will take years, maybe generations , to fix it -- IF there is the will. Even though some of us are on the pre carious edge of things, most of us still have a roof over our heads, food i n our bellies, medical coverage. It is virtually impossible for us to unde rstand how people can sicken and die from lack of medical care in such a ri ch society ***where health care is commodified instead of treated as a publ ic good.***
Gotta say I'm a little disappointed, though not really surprised, that this thread drifted into anecdotal material instead of addressing the basic iss ue of health care commodification. It's at the root of the matter, whethe r from a pocket-book POV (major $$ saved down the road by early interventio n) or a human rights POV (OK, I think he's a lazy bum but he's still a huma n being; who am I (ping Pope Francis) to judge him).
Society works better when people are healthy, can work, can pay taxes, can contribute their brains and creativity.
The 1% doesn't give a fracking fig as long as they get theirs.
CUI BONO?
HB
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On 08-16-2013 13:54, dadiOH wrote:

Some do

Most ARE saying that. Some for good reasons, others to increase the insurance company's profits.

Maybe if insurance companies weren't so greedy, greedy docs wouldn't be compensating by sticking it to the uninsured.
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Wes Groleau

Trying to be happy is like trying to build a machine for which
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Or maybe if docs didn't have an inflated sense of what they are worth the insurance companies would be paying them less and the uninsured would be able to pay the more realistic fees.
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dadiOH
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