OT: Health care struck down

Page 7 of 16  
On Wed, 09 Feb 2011 03:04:41 -0600, The Daring Dufas

what's tragic is that those who voted for bush havent regretted their action.

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On 2/9/2011 4:49 AM, bpuharic wrote:

Oh my God, your Bush Derangement Syndrome is approaching its end stage. "Hey, the toilet is stopped up." "It's Bush's fault!" Perhaps you can go to a library and read some books about what powers a President has.
TDD
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wrote:

hell, by that logic, given bush's disasters, it'll be a century before we elect another white guy

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Will have USA have its Presidents for the next 100 years being Asian- Americans, in-between-skin-color Latino Americans, or Innuits born in Alaska?
For that matter, I would prefer someone beholden to that person's conscience (perhaps if born and raised in an igloo), as opposed to the lobbyist-bought politicians that too many lazy Americans vote for in response to degree of presence of lobbyist-paid $$$$$$$ campaign advertising.
As for home repair... How well will we refuse to elect those who would make it illegal for ordinary homeowners to do so or unable to afford to do so?
Should I need a building permit and inspection by a licensed tradesman at top-dollar building-trades-union wage to replace a toilet, a faucet washer, or an outlet, or a socket in a "permanently installed" light fixture?
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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<stuff snipped>

blow
sky
Sorry. That's utter nonsense. They mostly signed up to drill two weekends a month and two weeks a year of training in exchange for help paying for their college education. When many of the older ones signed up, it was ostensibly to "fill in" for the main fighting forces. They didn't realize that the grand restructuring of our Armed Forces after Nam have basically MADE the Guard and Reserves a much larger player than they have ever been. The "all volunteer" force was designed mainly to avoid the public pressure the draft created to end the war. Many DoD officials believe loss of public support caused the loss in Vietnam. They still can't believe the US lost because of the nature of the conflict and our inability to separate friend from foe. Just like AfRaq.
If these warriors loved fighting SO f'ing much, why did Bush have to Stop-loss so damn many of them? You don't have to "back door draft" people who really, really want to be there. The reality is that many of them were willing to abandon all the years they had put toward full benefits just so they wouldn't have to kill people that many of them knew had never lifted a finger against us in anger. "Exit" pregnancies skyrocketed as did people filing for disabilities that were not particularly disabling until they wanted them to be.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2010-08-06-1Astoploss06_ST_N.htm says:
"More than 140,000 troops - all but about 20,000 of them Army soldiers - had assignments extended under the policy since 2001. It was referred to as a "back-door draft" by Rep. John Murtha, the combat veteran and Pennsylvania Democrat who died early this year."
Those numbers alone put the lie to your claim that they all wanted to be there. Mostly, they are poorly educated kids 18-21 that couldn't find jobs, needed help paying for a college education or were given the choice of jail or enlisting. To many of them, combat was no different that playing "Call to Duty" on a PSP and if you got killed, you just pressed "reset." Some Reservists are people like my wife, who transferred from the active Army to the Reserves back in the 80's and have no interest in killing anyone. They joined out of a sense of patriotism and a desire to help people.
If you look at the MOS's of the people dying in AfRaq you'll find a lot of representation in civil affairs, logistics, military police and medical personnel. Unfortunately that specific information is not released to the public but it can often be inferred from their unit designation. An IED doesn't know or care if it's killing a vehicle full of Special Operators, cooks or nurses. IED attacks are one of the main sources of casualties in the Iraq war - er, OIF. I can't imagine that a gung-ho warfighter signing up to find glory on the battlefield would consider a "battle" with buried explosive device the kind of fight they were looking for.
The draft, it turned out, was a good thing because it imposed informal limits on how long parents would allow their children to be dragged off to fight meaningless wars. We keep trying to bring democracy to people who don't know or care about the meaning of the word. We expend vast amounts of our blood and treasure to somehow bring democracy to Islam. WTF for? We're neglected everything that's going wrong with our own country in an attempt to "fix" countries half way around the world that collectively wouldn't cross the street to piss on us if we were on fire. Where's the sense in that? Or the reward?
We haven't learned one single, stinking thing from history because we've already seen that when they do get the right to vote they vote for Hamas. Still, we're hell-fired still determined to bring them "the vote" as if it were some magic bullet cure-all for centuries of tradition, culture and religious lunacy. Magical thinking.
All the people yapping about how f'ing wonderful the Egyptian "revolution" is might not be so all-fired happy when the Muslim Brotherhood takes over the country after winning legitimate elections. That's assuming Mubarek won't just start killing off his opposition. Anyone with a memory can recall a similar series of events with the press falling all over themselves predicting an end to the strict control of the Chinese government over its citizens when demonstrations erupted in Tianamen Square. Oops! Didn't quite work out as planned!
We always think we know which way the dominoes will fall, but we almost never do. Remember all the Cubans who were supposed to join the invaders at the Bay of Pigs? Or the belief the Iraqis would welcome us with flowers and candy instead of IEDs? Let's back the Shah of Iran, they said. He'll come out on top. Let's back Marcos, he's a winner. How about Diem? The list is endless.
-- Bobby G.
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That's utter nonsense. They knew that they could be called up, etc. Besides, we are this far into the war and the enlistments (and reenlistments) for Guard and Reserve are still remain very high. Hard to suggest after all this time, that they were lead astray.
In FY 2010 for instance, retention for the Army Guard was 101% of goal. They were also doing ~90% or better of their initial enlistment goals. Hard to suggest people in 2010 did not know what they were getting into.
--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to
koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
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wrote:

They at least know they are getting a steady job, health insurance, and other bennies. The rest is the roll of the dice. http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2009/1112/p17s01-usmi.html
--Vic
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On 2/9/2011 3:04 PM, Kurt Ullman wrote:

The older ones should have known better, but 'it won''t happen to me' still applies to their thought processes. A lot of them DID sign up for the extra cash, and I feel sorry for their spouses and kids. I do have trouble with letting kids (say under 23-25 or so) volunteer for combat duty. Their brains are not fully developed (and modern research has confirmed what centuries of empirical evidence has suggested about that), and they still think they are immortal. They don't have the life experience to make a knowing informed decision to put themselves at risk. They proved that pretty well when they briefly lowered the drinking age to 18 a couple decades ago, then quickly had to move it back when it became obvious a large fraction of the 18-21 set couldn't handle it.
--
aem sends...

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As for drinking age - what do you think about the many other countries less restrictive than USA? Such as Germany - able to lift and drink from a beer mug is old enough to drink. Or France - able to lift and drink from a wine glass is old enough to drink.
As for countries needing soldiers - there is the matter that men of age in or especially younger than mid-20's have a famous tendency to be willing to live dangerously. I think such soldiers would be more willing to be such if they were allowed to drink.
Another item - sometimes practiced in Greece back in their day a couple thousand years ago: Male soldier and his boyfriend both serve, in the same smallest-level unit, both of them being soldiers. If one of such in-love-with-each-other couples takes a fatal hit from The Enemy, then the other becomes an enraged dangerous beast as dangerous as wild animals get, especially if young enough to not-yet-experience the "7-year (or 4-year) itch".
--
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

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On Wed, 9 Feb 2011 13:48:00 -0500, "Robert Green"

Agree with what you've said. Besides the reservists, some regulars signed up because it was the best job they could find. My SIL had a college education but the best job he could find was in the Army. He's a chopper pilot now. Not to say they're not dedicated and patriots. But when I went in the Navy the day after I turned seventeen it was to fight and die. Figured it would be a torpedo. Never happened, and can't say I was disappointed. I wised up of course.. BTW, I retired early from a major insurance company. Domestic business, not a global company. The policy in our department became to only hire Indians from a preferred Indian contracting vendor. So if an American vet returning from Iraq would submit a resume, it would be tossed in the trash. They'd hire a foreigner instead. I would be out front having a smoke, and see the big stars and stripes flying on the high flagpole, and think about those vets. Pissed me off every time. I got out of there. God bless America!
--Vic
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Vic Smith wrote:

If any DID sign up for minimal service instead of real fighting, they have long ago gotten out since their term of enlistment is a maximum of four years. It is fair to presume the current contingent of Guard and Regular are there because the want to be there, they trained to be there, they NEED to be there. For their family's sake. For their country's sake. For honor's sake.

OF COURSE it's the best job they could find! For them. Where else do you get to kill people and blow things up? And get PAID for it? McDonald's? Ace Hardware? Home Depot?
Well, maybe Home Depot....
Eighty-five percent of the troops who have served in Iraq or Afghanistan re-enlist at the first opportunity. The remaining 15% were invalided out, retired, or (mistakenly) married harridans or fishwives.
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By any chance also for longer term prospect of being employed and/or getting employer-paid health insurance? Without getting a job in a politically powerful union or college degree maybe past a "4-year" one?
How about USA having had ~9% "official unemployment" for a couple years already?
Ever hear of the "Poverty Draft"?
Meanwhile, healthcare and health insurance costs inflate close enough to or into double digits per year ever since the early 1980's.
--
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

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Don Klipstein wrote:

Oh, I'm sure there's some of that. But your observation is similar to taking a job in Detroit.
It's not for the faint-hearted.
Besides, the military is one institution, out of very few, where one can advance based solely on valor and merit.
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True, one CAN, but that is not the case as often as one would like. The parade of sycophantic general officers sucking up to Bush and his handlers was truly nauseating. Of course there ARE innovative, courageous, dedicate, creative, ETHICAL officers! But the ones who get ahead are more often the ***kissers who care more about their careers than about the rank and file they are supposed to protect and support. Not naming names, but do I need to?!
HB
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Higgs Boson wrote:

Very few of enlistees rise from private to general officer.
I know one guy who enlisted at 16, made three major invasions during WW2, and rose from the rank of sergeant to 2nd Lieutenant over a period of three days. He was an engineer and the three days covered the Normandy invasion. He eventually retired with the rank of major. To my mind, an excellent example of valor and merit.
But again, I never heard of anyone like him rising to the rank of general.
And you're correct in that the system sometimes considers characteristics other than valor or merit. Nidal Hassan, the Ft Hood shooter, is an example of multi-culturalism being added to the mix.
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bpuharic wrote:

Very few. There are about 200 MRI machines in Canada and as many as 10,000 in the U.S. That's one for every 154,000 Canadians, and on for every 34,000 Americans. Canada just has fewer bolts.

Are you insane? I would hardly call a one-month (or longer) wait for an MRI "efficient."
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wrote:

and yet their medical care is as good as ours. go figure.

are you insane?? how long do y ou have to wait if you dont have health insurance?

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wrote:

People don't mind Microsoft making 25% but do mind EXXON making 6-8% and anyone in healthcare making anything. The reasons are fairly simple, Microsoft isn't selling a product that they feel entitled to...yet. People feel that they are entitled to healthcare at a cheap cost because they believe it to be their right. I can't explain why someone will complain about having to pay $75 ($25 copay) to see their doctor but not say a word about paying $75 for the labor to replace a battery in their car. That same entitlement has now moved to the need for gasoline and the hatred of the oil companies for making a profit even when that profit is needed for more exploration to keep their supply of oil up and the prices down. What they seem to forget in all their sense of entitlement is that those whom they would require serve their sense of entitlement are equally entitled to earn a living and profit from their efforts.
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On 2/7/2011 4:29 PM, BobR wrote:

Liberalism is a mental disease and those of that ilk have a very bizarre idea about how the world is supposed to work. They actually believe there is such a thing as government money and that it exists in unlimited amounts. They have another weird belief that the government can actually create jobs. Oh well, we have to tolerate them because they eventually grow up and turn into Conservatives. :-)
TDD
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On Mon, 07 Feb 2011 16:50:31 -0600, The Daring Dufas

and conservatism is a learning disability
and those of that ilk have a very bizarre

and conservatives actually believe there is insurance company money
right wingers dont know money is
fungible. when you spend a dollar on healthcare, it's the same dollar, regardless of whether it came from the govt or from an insurance company
and that it exists in

gee. we have UC berkeley...UT at austin...U of michigan...world class universities...govt funded...that have produced world changing scientific revolutions
to the right wing this proves the govt has failed.
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