OT: Electric car batteries

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Too much hassle to change diet. I like to eat what I enjoy eating.
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That's certainly how I envision it. The customer would even get a credit for the remaining charge that is left in his low battery. The facility would look like a high-tech car-wash - drive in - robots do the work. The low batteries would be re-charged when grid rates are lowest - overnight & weekends. John T.
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On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 8:17:53 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@ccanoemail.ca wrote:

What do you think this robot facility would cost? The cost of these new facilities would be one big issue. And then you have the chicken and the egg problem, ie who's going to make the big investment when there are no cars that need it and who's going to buy the car without the facilities? Then you have the biggest problem, which is that all this is avoided with a gas powered car or a hybrid and last time I checked, they cost less without the recharging headaches.
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On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 08:18:25 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@ccanoemail.ca wrote:

It's certainly a good idea. They also tried it in Israel, a small country where it seemed it might be easier to do than in a big country. It was in the newspaper in the US. They were going to have machine-accessible batteries, and a machine that would take the old one out and put the new one in (since they are heavy.)
It wasn't as popular as they hoped, and maybe they were counting on enrollment to raise the money to build more battery replacement locations. At any rate, eventually they put it up to a vote of those who were using the service, whether, if I recall the choice correctly, to have fewer battery replacement locations than once planned, but all over the country, or to have them in the Tel Aviv area, 50 or however many miles from Tel Aviv. The subscribers voted for the second choice. But the article below seems to say that that didn't last either, and maybe I suppose the cars are just slow-charged at the homes and jobs of whoever owns them now.
Googling I find https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place which says they started in 2007, peaked in 2012, and were bankrupt by 2013. They had tried in Denmark and Hawaii too, also small places, but maybe they did that after they didnt' get enough customers in Israel, and then had the same problem in the other places too. This page has a short part called "History of the battery swap concept" which includes "Electric forklifts have used battery swapping since at least 1946[32][33] and a rapid battery replacement system was implemented to help maintain 50 electric buses at the 2008 Summer Olympics in China.[34]"
Googling also shows that others in Israel are working instad on a quickly-rechargeable car. http://fortune.com/2015/08/19/electric-car-battery-charges-minutes/ http://www.timesofisrael.com/storedot-promises-electric-car-that-charges-in-5-minutes/ and separately http://www.breitbart.com/california/2014/06/09/israeli-canadian-electric-car-company-leapfrogs-tesla-with-long-range-battery/
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the fundamental problem is that the battery itself which can be considered a container is much more valuable compared to the value of the energy it holds.
Are you going to be happy when you buy a new car and at the first reill you trade in your brand new expensive battery for an old one?
It works OK for propane tanks becasue the tank is not worth much more compared to the fuel.
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On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 06:40:04 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

Finally someone gave the real reason. Batteries are expensive and they wear out. Fleets, on the other hand, could benefit from a system like this. A fleet of service vehicles, police cars, taxis, etc where all the batteries are owned by the same entity would work. I expect that's where we will see this succeed. Of course, gas will have to rise in cost again such that significant money can be saved by going electric.
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On 06/22/2016 08:52 AM, Pat wrote:

Here, gas prices are going down again. I saw $2.00/gallon yesterday.
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On 6/22/2016 2:29 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:

Cheaper than I could charge an electric car.
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On 06/22/2016 07:40 AM, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

That is one problem. Swapping out forklift batteries is common, but the company owns all the batteries, and replaces them as needed. Who is responsible for replacing the car batteries when they fail?
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On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 06:40:04 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

I didn't expect people to read all 4 links in my previous post, but in that system, the owner of the car didn't own the battery in it. In the same way, sort of, one buys a car but it doesn't come with more than a little bit of gasoline. So it wasn't "your brand new battery", it belonged to the battery company from the beginning.
There are a lot of things about owning a car, a home, a business, that people don't like, but if they want to have a car with, say, Sirius Radio, then you pay the extra fee for that. If you want a battery car where you exchange batteries, you can get used to the idea that you don't own the battery.

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On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 9:40:08 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

You just need to adapt the business model. When you buy the car it's priced without a battery. The battery, you're paying for a swap battery, the dealer puts the first one in when you buy the car, meaning it's just one of the typical ones you'd get at one of the swap places. All the swap places would have to be of the same company or in some association so that they all have about the same age, quality batteries, etc.
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On 06/22/2016 08:41 AM, trader_4 wrote:

You're suggesting a monopoly? Sam's Swap Shop isn't going to try to undercut the competition?
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On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 10:10:27 PM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:

I never said monopoly, nor is one required.
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On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 08:18:25 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@ccanoemail.ca wrote:

Charging only in off peak times means having to carry a larger inventory. That is added cost.
Who determines the credit? If I charged where we pay 20¢ a kW and trade in where they pay half that, I lose even more.
Robots can do the job where the program fits a particular car, but now design is limited as easy access is important too. It has to be universal to work. Can you trade in your Betamax tapes at the same place?
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On 06/22/2016 04:44 AM, James Wilkinson wrote:

You're a little slow on the draw. One problem is what consists of a 'full one'. Do you really want to trade your brand new battery pack for one at the end of its life?
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And then next time you go in you get one that's better. They'd always give you one they considered "within spec", and you'd never have to pay for a new one yourself. That's the main reason I don't buy an electric car, because half the cost of the car is getting a new battery when it expires.
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People used to believe TV sets weighed more when they were switched on, because the instructions stated "always switch off your set before attempting to move it".

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On 06/22/2016 08:15 AM, James Wilkinson wrote:

You must be a Bernie Bro. Exactly who is that they that's going to keep buying new batteries for you? You but the car and the battery and it comes with a free lifetime supply of batteries?
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On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 9:52:51 AM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:

Sure when the business model is that you never own the battery to begin with. The car can come without a battery, dealer puts in one of the recharge network batteries and off you go.
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On 6/22/2016 10:43 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Makes a bit more sense that way, but it would still not be a one size fits all. What is the cost of a swap versus a home charge? If I can plug in for say, $2, it would seem silly to pay for a swap for $5 or more.
Tesla is supposed have a 200 mile range on some models. I could go a couple of months with home charging, but for the weekend away I'd need a different car or perhaps two or three charges. There a swap can justify a little premium.
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On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 1:46:05 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

The problem is, who wants to go through all those possible permutations, having to figure out where you can and can't go, where there would be a battery swapper, etc. Gas or hybrid, you're good to go. It's for hippies or people who just want a second car for commuting, around town, etc and they have another one for longer trips. Maybe an SUV and an electric car.
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