OT: Ebola, interesting NBC story on how big business dealt with it

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Per Norminn:

I am surprised that none of the pundits I have heard so far have picked up on the idea that ebola sounds like a terrorist's wet dream: infectious material easily obtained, easily transported in the form of contaminated clothing.... and so-forth. Somebody, somewhere must be thinking of this stuff....
--
Pete Cresswell

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On Monday, October 27, 2014 5:09:37 PM UTC-4, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

ISIS already said a couple weeks ago that they were working on ways to bring it to the USA. Right now, given that they have suicide mission folks, the way to do it is obvious and would take very little money and resources to pull off.
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Coming from an RN that is experience talking. You can do everything right and have things still go off the rails. The operation was successful, the patient died has some basis in fact. As I mentioned, though the history of Ebola is filled (pretty much 1 or 2 every outbreak) where medical people did all the stuff they were supposed to do and yet got it. That is the main reason every one is always sure it is going aerosol until not enough get it. I was a bit cavalier perhaps, but things happen that we don't how or why.

If one virus particle can spread Ebola that will the first time in the history of mankind that any virus (or bacteria for that matter) will be able to do that. Also goes against what WHO and CDC have been saying about it gets more infective the sicker a person gets. If only one could indeed do it, we'd all been dead along time ago.

But that doesn't match up the science. Ebola doesn't become infective until you have symptoms. Even then, the real problems don't come around until you start with the bleeding, vomiting, etc. You will note that nobody popped up Ebola even after they sent the first guy in Dallas home for a few days. The boyfriend of the nurse didn't get it. Nobody on any of the airplanes has been diagnosed yet. The only people that have gotten it were those two nurses who were in intimate contact with the Dallas dude for long periods of time when he was the sickest/most infective. None of the rest of the staff that attended to him has tested positive. The best way to handle Ebola would be have a visiting nurse see them at home twice a day for a couple of weeks.
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On 10/27/2014 5:15 PM, Kurt Ullman wrote:

And then burn the building to the ground?
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On 10/27/2014 5:15 PM, Kurt Ullman wrote:

They didn't do everything "right" or they would not get the disease. I can't recall ANY time, over many years, that a family member or friend was hospitalized and either the doc or nurses didn't do something really wrong. Most recently, my daughter had a serious facial injury...compound fracture of her nose, open wound...had one of the best specialized plastic surgeons do a nice repair. I went with her for her first post-op visit....nurse came in to remove dressing, waited a bit for the surgeon...then surgeon walked in without washing his hands (door knobs are not sterile), walked over, touched the wound. She got an infection. Considering how much discussion there is about hospital acquired infection, it was an arrogant, careless thing to do. It is how docs and nurses continue to kill people.

More infective with sicker patients because the virus load (think concentrated poison) is so much greater.
The doc who came back to NYC and got E. had been feeling fatigued before he got the fever....having worked with the epidemic close up, he should have been more careful. And that was one person expert and knowledgeable who didn't recognize early symptoms. Then there is the RN who knew she should not travel but got on a commercial flight with a fever to go to a wedding.
It took the CDC one hell of a long time to figure out why gay men were getting a wierd disease....not until AIDS was in the blood supply and killing hemophiliac children? The CDC and a bunch of medical "experts" are wearing themselves out with pretty weak reassurances. CDC can't make up it's mind about hazmat suits or isolation. Isolation of communicable diseases should be settled science, not a mystery to modern, major hospitals. Dallas hospital had nurses caring for Ebola patient AND the other patients....probably refused to pay them overtime as well :o)
And none of them are talking about Ebola becoming established in wild animals here as it is in Africa...just a few rats in a sewer?

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news:yJudnf6PwrhCKNPJnZ2dnUU7- <stuff snipped>

From what I've read one of the problems is that a *fresh* observer is required to insure protocols are absolutely followed because tired nurses and doctors pulling double and triple shifts slip up. Also, an observer can see the backs of people. Some problems occur as health workers who might have bodily fluids spilled on areas they can't see remove their hazmat suits and accidentally contaminate themselves.
As ghastly as Ebola is, we're fortunate to understand the nature of these diseases and how to combat and prevent them. I can't imagine what it was like to live in a time of medical ignorance like Tudor England where the sweating sickness was reputed to kill people within three hours:
http://discovermagazine.com/1997/jun/thesweatingsickn1161
<This frequently fatal disease caused fever, profuse sweating, headaches, and extreme shortness of breath. Death usually came quickly. It killed some within three hours, wrote one Tudor chronicler. Some within two hours, some merry at dinner and dead at supper.>
Often people of the period would consume tonics and tinctures that were just as likely to kill them as the disease was.
Scientists believe they now know what caused the disease that could start with a headache in the morning, leave you gasping for breath in the afternoon, and dead by nightfall. Makes Ebola look like a slow-motion killer. It's an interesting medical detective story that may some day require the exhumation of Henry Brandon, the Duke of Suffolk to be confirmed, but the clues all line up to point to a modern day killer. You'll have to read the story to find the answer. (-:
--
Bobby G.



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news:OeudnVb5GPOC_dPJnZ2dnUU7-a-

There you go, tarnishing the image of Saint Reagan. (-: You'll anger the acolytes. They'll start to foam.

Yes, and unhampered by things like the Firestone Customs Service, Armed Forces, CDC, DOJ, etc. Firestone employees don't elect the chairman of the board, they can be fired far more easily than a citizen can be stripped of citizenship. The dissimilarities are endless making it a totally specious example. Firestone's behavior can't really be compared to the government's role in such epidemics. It's cherry picking absolutely inappropriate analogies. And as you point out, the hospital in Dallas was in the private sector, torpedoing any iota of credibility the Firestone analogy might have ever had. Glug, glug, down to Davy Jones' locker she goes.

Osama must be laughing from the grave to see how easily the US can be tricked into war. It doesn't even take bringing down a skyscraper - just televise a few beheadings and we're whipped into the same old senseless war frenzy. They could probably whip the war-mongering Christians into total blood fever by just raping a nun or two for Internet TV.
We seem to have forgotten that even though we pulverized Germany from the air in WWII it still took boots on the ground during D-Day to win the war. Obama's "air only" campaign is doomed to failure unless we A-bomb the entire Middle East. <We're waist deep in the big muddy but the big fool says to push on.> Change "muddy" to "sandy" and the song means the same. Sadly Obama's been goaded into making the same old stupid mistakes by the media and ISIS's PR agents who certainly have outmatched the Whitehouse at every turn. Especially hypocritical after he critized Bush for the same thing.

Reminds me of the line from "Life of Brian" - "Nail them up I say, nail some sense into them!" What did *we* end up doing with the war-like tribal cultures that plagued our westward expansion? Extermination. That's how tribal conflict almost always ends. Ask any Aussie about the "abos."

And like we did in Iraq, we oust the strongmen that can keep these warring tribes in check and then wonder why the countries become completely destabilized. We don't understand the mindset and the "glue" that holds these backward countries together and somehow believe we can bomb them out of their tribal ways and into democracies. It's a mistake that's been made by the left and the right for decades. (Centuries? Eons?) We do it even though there is almost always negative progress to show (ISIS is being led, it seems, by former military men who worked for Saddam).
Recently I read that ISIS now has chemical weapons we gave the Iraqis. Let the countries most affected by Islamic militants fight their own battles. Let's wean them off US military welfare. Why would they ever stand on their own two feet if Uncle Sam always steps in to fight their battles?

Well, we're working hard to make it seem that way, with devastating results. The Russians, Turks and Chinese have a SERIOUS problem with Islamic militancy but you don't see them wasting their blood or treasure trying to civilize people who were born uncivilized and will die that way. The Iraqis wanted us out as fast as we could pack a few years back. Now they're singing a different tune. Cry me a river.

Car bombing is once again the national pastime of Iraq so I would have to agree - we're pissing in the wind with nothing to show for it except wet clothing. And a big hit to the treasury. Worse, still, it's not like we'll take good care of the soldiers that get maimed fighting for some other country. It's a lose/lose situation brought about by the skillful publicity agents of ISIS, the US's bogeyman du jour.
--
Bobby G.




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On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 11:42:40 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:

I'd say rather than making it specious, you've missed the essence of it. The fact that Firestone isn't the CDC, DOJ, Customs Service, etc is precisely the point.

Yeah, it worked.

I didn't say it proves anything. Only that it's an example of how private sector companies can do things right. As for the Dallas hospital, re-read what you posted above. In the Dallas hospital, it wasn't the private sector calling the shots. The CDC had a team there at the hospital, knew fully well what the hospital was doing, the hospital was following the CDC protocols.

Sure, marginalize what ISIS is doing as "just a few beheadings". It was similar dismisal of Bin Laden that lead to 911.

The problem is that it took 3 years of goading to get Obama to act. If he had been doing his job, it never would have gotten to the point where most of Iraq fell to ISIS. Obama is always 3 years to months behind the curve. He lets the enemy, whether Putin or ISIS control events, shape the battle field. Then when it's too late, he joins the party, on their terms.

I thpought you libs were full of compassion for those backward countries? When Republicans don't think private companies should be forced to pay for women's contraceptives, you scream bloody murder and accuse them of "war on women". But when ISIS cuts of the heads of men and women, heards up men, women and children and shoots them, that's just "a few beheadings". Go figure.

The problem here is that Obama could have strong armend Maliki years ago. It was obvious he was out of control. One phone call from LBJ, Nixon, Reagan, Bushs41/43, they would have him in line. Bush 43 did have him in line. Obama implemented exactly what you want. Just let them do what they want, ignore it. That how we went from 2008 and peace, to total chaos now.

Of course it's islam against the west. There are millions of islamic fundementalist nuts they would like to kill us all, unless we live by their rules.
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On 10/29/2014 9:31 AM, trader_4 wrote:

>> compared to the government's

Oh, man. Some times in life, there is a smack down that echoes through the room. This is one such moment. My hat's off to you, Sir!
- . Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
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On 10/29/2014 9:31 AM, trader_4 wrote:

CY: Shows where Roberts concerns are?

CY: It's "just a few beheadings" at the moment. Well, each one of those murder victims had family, friends, and his own life that was taken in a brutal manner. Lets send Robert Green to the middle east with a big banner "Pork for Peace!" and he can be next.
- . Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
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nice try, bad strawman

and yet no one at any other hospital has been infected

I've asked who should be appointed and keep getting silence as an answer

as soon as the doctor felt like crap and had a fever he reported himself as a possible ebola patient. the nurse that felt like crap and had a fever did what?

but you could isolate them for three weeks (sound familiar) until they are non-contagious
But it would have stopped Duncan from coming here. If we

more people in the United States, no matter what their age or health status will die every day from flu than will die from ebola

Nice of you to admit you were wrong. it's amazing what a little common sense and research can teach you.

In fact it is you that is pissing and moaning. I only presented a fact that should have been easily discernable

And you feel much better having it run by a tobacco company that for decades knew that there was a strong relationship between tobacco and lung cancer? or maybe you'd rather it run by one of those banks too big to fail
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On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 11:47:43 PM UTC-4, Malcom Mal Reynolds wrote:

It's a good analogy, not a strawman.

BS. Hundreds have been infected in Africa. A nurse was infected in Spain. And in the USA, you act as if we've had hundreds of Ebola patients treated at typical hospitals to form a basis for comparison. So, far, we have only the Dallas case. The other couple of hospitals were ones that they specifically took Ebola patients from outside the USA to because those hospitals were trained, equipped, specialized to deal with highly contagious, deadly diseases. We've just started on case number two to compare, which is NYC. But until a few more weeks go by, we don't know if any healthcare worker there will be infected or not. And even now, hopefully something has been learned from that first case in Dallas.
But, you have Perry and Texas on the brain. It's understandable. With one major screw-up after another, you libs desperately need to try to take attention off Obama. You have IRSgate, vets dying at the VA, Syria, the fall of Iraq, ISIS, now Ebola chaos. I feel your pain and need to look for diversions.

That has nothing to do with the missing in action Ebola czar that Obama appointed, who has no qualifications for the job at all. I call him Flounder. He looks like Flounder from Animal House, the fat, dumb, freshman.

Both nurses did exactly the same thing. Do try to pay attention.

Cancer isn't contagious. And it would be impossible to stop the flu from spreading in the USA by quarantining anyone. Yet obviously even the CDC recognizes the importance of quarantining Ebola, that it does stop the spread, because they've been doing it since day one. And if Ebola is so damn hard to transmit, why did the CDC track down 800 people due to that one nurse? Why was the plane she traveled on taken out of service and cleaned 3 times? Why did the close the bowling alley and restaurant in NYC. Sure, we can do all that, disrupt Americans lives, put them out of business for good. But we can't institute a ban on non-essential travel for non-citizen tourists from West Africa. Go figure. You libs have more concern for the rights of some non-citizen from Africa to come see his cousin or NYC, than you do for your fellow citizens.

That won't be true if we listen to you and let Ebola get out of control. And we can't stop the spread of flu. We can spread the spread of Ebola. You accuse me of not caring about cancer patients, which is of course BS, but then you're perfectly willing to tolerate some number of dead Americans, that could be prevented by a simple ban on non-essential travel from West Africa. To you libs, political correctness, allowing Uncle Kummmi to come visit his nephew or see NYC, is worth the risk of dead Americans. Not to me. And not to about two thirds of all Americans as all the polls continue to show.
But, heh, it's Obama's show. You feel real good going into next Tuesday?

That's an essential difference here. When I'm wrong on something, I'll admit it, not lie like you do.

The fact is that the fact is irrelevant and only a loon lib would even go there.

Yes, I feel much better having it run by a company that knows how to grow tobacco. Maybe we should let the missing Ebola czar grow it in his back yard. Would that make you happy? Of course, if it was an illegal alien who committed a felony, then you wouldn't be bitching about their past and you'd say we should just treat them like a swell human being. But a tobacco company shouldn't be allowed to grow tabacco for medical use. Go figure.
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also notice that the Governor of Texas has not called for an investigation...but then again it is the worst health care system in the United States

The CDC had/has the same protocols at all the hospitals that have ebola patients. how many hospitals have had two infections of their staff?
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On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 11:52:01 PM UTC-4, Malcom Mal Reynolds wrote:

The Dallas hospital had the protocols as recommended by the CDC. Not only that, but the CDC had a team on site in Dallas. Have you once heard the CDC say that we told the Dallas hospital to do X and they would not? Of course not. Plenty of hospitals in Africa have had multiple infections in their staff. And if you want to look at just the USA, then you need to take a course in probability and statistics. You're expecting us to draw conclusions from a sample size of one. The Dallas hospital was the only typical hospital called into action with an Ebola patient showing up unexpectedly at the ER. The couple of other hospitals knew they had an Ebola patient coming days in advance and more importanlty, those hospitals were specifically chosen because of their facilities, experience, training to deal with deadly, contagious diseases. Good grief.
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as if this whole thread isn't a breathtaking example of partisan outlook

those same CDC protocols are/were in place at all hospitals that have/had ebola patients, how many hospitals have allowed their staff to become infected?
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In article

Actually they weren't. The CDC updated the protocols after Dallas. Perhaps the most interesting in this context was changing them so that no skin was to be exposed. BIG change from earlier.
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On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 7:57:33 AM UTC-4, Kurt Ullman wrote:

Besides that, Malcom pretends like Dallas didn't listen to or follow the CDC protocols. In fact, CDC was right there, with a team in Dallas. Not once did they say or have they said since that the Dallas hospital was not following their protocols.
This is the same CDC of course that told the Dallas nurse who was already sick and with fever, that it was OK to get on an airplane. So much for the CDC and protocols.
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and strangely enough it would be even easier to infect the ISIS folks, they'd never suspect a thing
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then why has no other hospital had infections? is it an inconvenient truth that the hospital in the state with the worst health care system had an outbreak and that state is headed by a Republican?
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On Thursday, October 30, 2014 12:07:08 AM UTC-4, Malcom Mal Reynolds wrote:

You really, really want to try to desperately pin this on Perry. Kurt and I have explained it to you. The Dallas hospital was the very first hospital in the country where a person just walked into the ER, sick and it turned out to be Ebola. All the other cases were where it was known days in advance that an American Ebola patient from Arica was being flown here for treatment. And those hospitals were specifically chosen because they have training, experience, facilities to deal with deadly, exotic, contagious diseases. The Dallas hosptial did not. Neither did the hospital in Spain, where another nurse was similarly infected. Perry responsible for that too? Or how about the hundreds of healthcare workers infected in Africa for that matter. The only other case where a typical local hospital is dealing with an Ebola walk-in is Bellevue in NYC. And so far, it's too early to tell if anyone will get infected there. Whether they do or not won't prove anything either, you still will then have a sample size of just two.
Also, I've pointed out to you before that a national survey of nurses showed that 80% of them said they had not received training, their hospital had no writen procedures, inadequate gear to deal with Ebola, etc. Clearly Perry isn't responsible for 80% of the hospitals in the USA.
Finally, you really need to take a course in probability and statistics. You're trying to pull far flung silly conclusions from a sample size of one.
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