OT - credit card upgrade question

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On Thu, 09 Apr 2015 20:59:51 -0600, Arthur Conan Doyle

Pretty hard to clone the chipcard any way.
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| The only information that can be read with a remote reader (assuming that the | reader is within a few inches of the card) is the same information embossed in | the card and readable on the mag stripe. Those details are insufficient to | create a cloned card.
Do you happen to have any links to info about this? I don't understand the technical details of how it works, and without knowing that it's hard to assess the risks, or lack of them.
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Mayayana wrote:

Google "credit card safety tip".
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| > Do you happen to have any links to info | > about this? I don't understand the technical | > details of how it works, and without knowing | > that it's hard to assess the risks, or lack of | > them. | > | > | Google "credit card safety tip".
I've done some searching and found some info, but I haven't come across a full, authoritative explanation of the whole thing. Mr. Conan Doyle claims to know all about it, so I figured perhaps he can share his source. If you find the full story by Googling I'd be glad to follow your links. What I'm wondering about is the full story on how the chips actually work.
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RFID comes is several different flavors. There's a lot of incorrect information floating around. this is one of the more reputable sources about the technology:
http://www.rfidjournal.com/site/faqs
When you run across passive vs. active, understand that passive RFID does not require a battery and is the type of RFID used in some credit cards.
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| > I've done some searching and found some info, | >but I haven't come across a full, authoritative | >explanation of the whole thing | | RFID comes is several different flavors. There's a lot of incorrect information | floating around. this is one of the more reputable sources about the technology: | | http://www.rfidjournal.com/site/faqs | | When you run across passive vs. active, understand that passive RFID does not | require a battery and is the type of RFID used in some credit cards.
I think I understand RFID. A very small chip holds a single, large ID number, which can be read from varying distances depending on the reader and the chip. That's the kind of thing I was thinking of in the scenario of CVS reading the contents of your car. In particular, I was highlighting that any limits in read distance shouldn't be assumed to be permanent limitations.
What I don't understand is EMV, particularly how it's being used in credit cards. You seem to know all about how that works and how it's being implemented, while all I've been able to find is general tips about "getting ready for chip cards".
What little I've found seems to imply there's some kind of token number passed, not exposing any pertinent information, but I don't understand how that can work securely. And you said the chip contains the credit card number and name, which would imply a chip is not secure in any way. In fact, it would seem to me to be less secure. If the chip holds a unique ID sent to MC/Visa to be matched up with your account, and US merchants don't require a PIN number, then it would seem fairly easy to just tape a programmed chip to any old card and pass it over checkout readers.
I also don't understand why/how EMV is different from RFID. Is EMV just the name used for RFID chips being used in cards?
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On 4/11/2015 8:36 AM, Mayayana wrote:

I think someone said that EMV uses metal connectors like a flash drive into USB socket. Anyone can confirm this? I'd be a lot more comfortable with a pin and socket setup.
- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus . www.lds.org . .
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From the Visa website: "For contact chip cards, your customers must insert the chip card into the payment terminal reader instead of swiping the card as they do with a magnetic stripe card. Also, your customers must leave the chip card in the payment terminal reader until the total transaction amount is known. " Thus it has to be inserted AND kept in the reader for the entire interaction. Appears to be no radio signals.
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| I think someone said that EMV uses metal connectors | like a flash drive into USB socket. Anyone can confirm | this? I'd be a lot more comfortable with a pin and | socket setup. |
?? Maybe you should drink some of your morning coffee beofre posting? :)
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On 4/11/2015 9:37 AM, Mayayana wrote:

Coffee? What's that? I've heard that name, but being Mormon, can't say as I recognize it.
- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus . www.lds.org . .
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| > ?? Maybe you should drink some of your morning coffee | > beofre posting? :) | > | > | Coffee? What's that? I've heard that name, but | being Mormon, can't say as I recognize it. |
Sorry. I misunderstood your post. You knew more about it than I did. This is the first I've heard of EMV contacts. All I've seen or read about up until now is embedded chips that are read at a distance. I'd thought that was what this whole conversation was about and didn't know there was a type that had to be inserted into a reader. I received a new PayPass MasterCard just last month and that, too, has only an embedded chip. (Which now has a tiny hole through it. :)
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On 4/11/2015 12:39 PM, Mayayana wrote:

All I know about EMV chips is what I've read on this list. So, now we're even.
Any RFID cards that arrive here will get the same treatment. Holy chip!
- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus . www.lds.org . .
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On 4/11/2015 12:39 PM, Mayayana wrote:

Next year or so you may be calling for a new card when yours is not accepted. Initially, you can swipe, but once all the readers are upgraded, it may not work as the reader defaults to the chip if it is a chipped card.
Fear of the unknown. People used to fear the automobile too.
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I wonder what the outcome may be if you disable the rfid, your number is stolen and a counterfeit card is made with no rfid to validate it like the disabled one that the owner has been using? Liability for the disabled security perhaps?
--
Mr.E

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On 4/11/2015 2:41 PM, Mr.E wrote:

I'll trade that in exchange for less risk of losing my date by a crook with a walk by RFID scanner in a mall, some where.
- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus . www.lds.org . .
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That's correct. There is a small retangular gold contact plate on an EMV card. When inserted into a reader, those contacts provide power and data to the card, similar to how a USB stick works.
http://www.frontlineprocessing.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/EMV-Cardl.jpg
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| That's correct. There is a small retangular gold | contact plate on an EMV card.
If that's the case then I haven't seen an EMV card. The new card I got recently has no such rectangle, but it has a chip ands is labeled PayPass. So I guess that's a simple RFID with the card number on it? When I read it via an Android app I think it came up with a number of 2 character combinations, like a MAC address or hexidecimal byte notation.
I'd still be curious to learn about EMV functionality, if you come across a suitable link. I'd like to understand exactly how that transaction works.
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On 04/11/2015 11:35 AM, Mayayana wrote:
[snip]

Wal-Mart wouldn't allow my chipped card to be swiped, I had to insert it in a slot. The other stores required swiping.
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Mark Lloyd
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Walmart has actually relaxed their rules about swiping EMV cards. Initially (laste last year) when they first turned on the chip reader at their checkouts, they enforced the rule that EMV cards could not be swipred. They had to be inserted into the chip reader. Depending on how the bank had programmed the card, the user either entered a PIN or signed the signature pad.
What Walmart discovered is that people were easily confused by the card slot, and that some banks had programmed their EMV cards to use a PIN but hadn't informed their customers that they had to use a PIN. The customers in turn got confused over the difference between a debit PIN and a credit PIN.
So Walmart relaxed the rule and allowed chip cards to be swiped. Come this October, they will go back to not allowing EMV cards to be swiped.
Swiping will still be allowed at retailers who do not have EMV card readers. However, the retailer will be liable for any fraud against an EMV card used in a swipe reader, not the bank.
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On 04/12/2015 01:19 PM, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:

1. I got the chipped card last fall. 2. I swiped it at Wal-Mart. 3. That failed. Checker told me to use reader. 4. I used reader. 5. I use reader whenever I go to Wal-Mart. 6. I never knew of the change (allowing swiping).
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