OT Clinton.

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Clinton on the box last night. Accusing the Russians of sending attack helicopters to the Syrian government.
An obvious lie as it takes years to train up pilots and they would need them tomorow if it were true. An excuse to stick American fingers in the pie to help their Jewish fascist friends.
So hundreds more American boys gonna go out to Syria to die it seems.
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wrote:

How do you know if the pilots have not been training for years? how do you know if they sent pilots too? Seems like you are extrapolating a lot from a tiny bit of fact.
Proof you are a shit stirrer, IMO
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On 6/13/2012 7:38 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

True or not, there appears to be efforts to draw us into this. Question is, should we help replace the dictatorship with something worse? Plus, Muslims killing Muslims does not seem that disturbing.
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Your analysis is close, but no cigar.
The Syrian Civil War is in essence a feudal war of a ruling oligarchy against a large portion of the populace. Most importantly, like almost everything in the Middle East (by extension, most countries with large Islamic factions), it is a religious war with one sect fighting another.
It is NOT in the best interests of Western countries to get involved here, other than to contain the oppressive regimes in the area. Russia is stirring a pot here that is liekly not going to help them in the long run, just like they got thrown out of Afghanistan eventually (as is the US, whatever our fig-leaf reason for leaving). But I am in favor of a no-fly rule, if that can be organized.
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Han
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Han wrote:

You are closer, but still not the full cigar.
This is a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia -> sunni vs shia.
Saudi Arabia has been funnelling lots of money to the "rebel" side, and Iran supports Assad.
Many christians are very afraid of the Assad gov't falling. They will (and already are) being killed by the rebel side.
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Cromwell
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Han
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Oren wrote:

The facts are that the rebel side of the Syrian conflict is being funded by Saudi Arabia.
The same Saudi Arabia that funded the 9/11 hijacking attack against the US. Maybe you forgot about that event.
Christians could live in peace and security in Syria under Assad. But they are being threatened, persecuted and killed by the rebels.
Does Fox news report that little nugget of information to a largely Christian, born-again evangelical United States?
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harry wrote:

Owe.
That one has got to hurt.
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How many women and children had Lincoln ordered killed?
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You certainly know nothing.

War is a bitch. How many did Churchill kill. 10million?

Half women and children - *murdered*.
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I think a no-fly zone, plus taking out select Syrian military targets, eg tanks, airbases, artillery etc, similar to what was done in Libya is long overdue. Obama has been getting a free ride on this one by the media. Every night the horror in Syria gets covered on the news, showing the dead women and children of the day. End of story. If it were a Republican president, the media would then turn to their Washington correspondent and ask Why isn't the US doing more here? Why did the president act in Libya just a year ago, but refuses to act in Syria? Do we not have a consistent foreign policy? Why can't we at least send weapons to support those trying to overthrow a brutal dictator?
I think the answer is that in the case of Libya, we had France leading because of their oil interests. Obama only knows how to lead from behind. The case for toppling Assad is much greater than that for doing the same in Libya. Libya had renounced terrorism, given up it's nuclear weapons program and Qadaffi was at least acting more civil in the world community. In the case of Syria, they are one of the biggest sponsers of terrorism. They have sponsored terrorist attacks in Israel, Lebanon, and killed US troops in Iraq. It's hard to make a case that it's not worth trying to replace Assad with something that may be better.
As for harry's nonsense, until he has evidence of what Syria's pilot situation is, all he is doing, as usual, is making up crap. Syria could very well have more pilots than helicopters. That would not be unheard of. They could have recalled former pilots and put them back on duty. They could be having issues with older eqpt breaking down from more use and needing to be replaced. Kind of like any military operation that's been going on for over a year. Nothing new. Also, for the missions these thugs are undertaking, ie shooting at small arms fire and killing civilians, you don't have to be an ace pilot.
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wrote:

Syria is a densely populated country, not an empty desert. Moreover, there isn't a division of the country into areas of one faction and another are of another, it is interspersed little villages and smaller and larger towns. It would be nigh impossible to keep track of who is where. Until the fng religions are going to talk to each other over there in a "civilized" manner, I think hands off, aerial combat only is the best thing. Eventually "they" will need to work things out. Honor, pity for the poor, etc, etc is all good and well, but in the absence of a will to make peace by the people themselves, I really, really think that hands off is best.
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The fighting in Libya was for the most part in the cities. It's hard to kill women and children in the desert and with the exception of the oil well areas, no one wants a piece of desert.
Moreover,

Simple. Syrian artillery and helicopters are shelling a town. Take out that artillery and helicopters. There is contact with these towns, even reporters inside. It's not hard to find the guys shooting back. We did that in Libya with agents on the ground. Give them arms. Pretty much the same thing we did in Libya.
Until the fng religions are going to talk to each other over

It isn't hands off once you start aerial combat. Are you really suggesting we go engage them in one on one dog fights? Supressing their airforce is preceeded by massive bombing of their air bases, runways, communications, defensive missle systems, radar installations, command and control structure, etc. And Syria has some of the latest Russian stuff, so that isn't going to be trivial.
Once you're that deep into it, it makes no sense to me to not arm those trying to finish the job of deposing Assad. The above is sure gonna piss off Assad and show him who's side we're on. Why have him sticking around any longer than necessary?
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

In "The True Believer," by Eric Hoffer, the author opines that mass movements are most frequent in the recently enslaved and the recently freed. In Syria's case, we're talking about the recently freed. When Assad came to power, he implemented some significant, but not complete, reforms: private property rights, private banking systems, expanded suffrage, and other democratic improvements.
He didn't do enough, obviously, but what he did do, coupled with news in the region about the "Arab Spring" and the eagerness for Arabs to kill each other, incited his people to raise a protest.
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On 6/13/2012 8:20 AM, Han wrote:

Good, I did't know those specifics.
Russia's interests, I heard on FOX, are apparently in getting a naval base on the Mediterranean.
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wrote:

Syria has a smallish length of Mediterranean coast line, between Turkey and Lebanon, with at least 1 or 2 ports, at least one of which is visited by Russian ships.
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Han
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harry wrote:

Nonsense. Our military are volunteers. They joined the military for an opportunity to kill people and blow things up.
They would WELCOME the opportunity.
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But I don't welcome the opportunity to care for the wounded. And the cost is only a small aspect. The VA is overloaded as is.
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Han wrote:

You raise an excellent point that adds a substantial reason to my view that VA hospitals should be abolished.
Now before anybody's underwear gets bunched up, I'm not saying veterans should be denied care, I just think VA hospitals are a waste and duplication of services. Veterans should be treated at a local facility with the government picking up the bill.
At the least, this plan would make unnecessary a veteran's six hour bus trip from Cow Gully, Wyoming to Salt Lake City for treatment.
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