OT Chinese productivity

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People should go to jail "if" pensions were underfunded. There are ones who have a fiduciary responsiblity for this very reason. Employees pay into these pensions, along with their employer (government). It would be like having a 401 with employer matching up to "x" amount, then the employer saying "sorry" there's no money. And, everyone would say don't pay the retirement, in order to keep the company afloat.
As far as competition, the competition is building plants here. Workers flock to them. I wouldn't care if I worked for a foreign company or not. If big so called "American" companies want to keep a handful of jobs here, and outsource the rest, that's their right. But, they shouldn't be crying "buy American" just because they're using the loopholes here. Back to China, they are now taxing all foreign companies building/operating in their country @ 30%. "American" used to hide behind the loopholes here & in China. The chicken is coming home to roost, or whatever that saying is.
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I agree, but tell that to all the retirees I know that are getting the shaft from companies with huge unfunded pension liabilities. Expecting the government to police this is futile since they've been busy stealing from the SS trust fund for decades. Money for pensions should be unencumbered by any other debts but it never is. And with the government around to actually pay pensions to the people defrauded by crooks, things aren't likely to change.

And it should be the Feds right to tax them up the ying-yang. I laugh when I hear people who'll never be rich adamantly defending the tax breaks the ultra rich have been getting on the premise that if taxed they won't invest. Who's to say that their money will actually be invested here and not overseas, even worsening our economic woes? Get it from them while they still have it and before they move all their money offshore. The "magic bean" game of assuming growth will be enough to keep government operations funded is the biggest Ponzi scheme America has ever seen and now that growth is occurring mainly in *other* countries, the man behind the curtain has been revealed.
-- Bobby G.
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We're on the same page.
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Actually they haven't. First of all it says "trust fund" but was never was in any legal sense. For the most part, SS has been funded by things coming in at about the same time as things going out. In the 80s Congress noted that that wasn't going to work. So they increased SS taxes and came up with a "surplus". The problem is that they required by law that the surplus be in NON-MARKETABLE treasury securities. The exact same amount of money is there now as would have been if the budget had been balanced all that time. The exact same amount of money would have to be raised by the government to pay off the non-marketable securities WITH interest. It would be a lot easier if the other shit had not taken place. It would have made a lot more sense if the government had been able to take the money and lend it out so there was money coming in from outside the system (about the only dumb thing Dan Moynihan ever said was when expoused the idea that they had put SS on an actuarially sound path. The Congress absolutely guts Enron and others for putting all of the retirement money in Enron stock while doing the functional equivalent with SS).

about 1/3 of each tax quartile moves around during a decade. Some go all the way from the bottom to the top quartile.. some in the opposite direction.
--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to
koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
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non-Marketable securities. We were talking about Congress ordering SS to put them in non-Marketable securities.
--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to
koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
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On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 17:27:51 -0500, "Robert Green"

It's coming soon with the Fed's new "let's print money" inflationary policy.

Very well said, and worth IMO repeating.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

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wrote Re Re: OT Chinese productivity:

Once again, the Feds are punishing people who did the right thing, lived with in their means, saved for a rainy day and didn't engage in risky speculation with OPM (other people's money). I believe it shows that the Feds are completely lost, don't have an idea what to do, and never thought about what would happen when they kept dropping interest rates to "stimulate" the economy and finally got so close to 0% that the economy just stalled out like a car with a flooded carburetor.

Yes, but who's listening? Certainly not the Feds. Sadly I think the biggest boost to the recent economy came from all the attack ads that candidates ran on both sides, which are rapidly approaching the level of: "Don't vote for Joe Smith - he'll kill your whole damn family *including* the dog!"
-- Bobby G.
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Agreed. I've seen unions actually revolt against their own mgt.

Who raised it? The guy in the driver's seat or the guy on the line who said, "this is not gonna work, we should...."

Greed is greed.

I came up from digging ditches to working as, what we called, a carpet commando. I've been in several unions and excelled in an industry that, despite itself, tried to do the right thing, at least in their mind. The bottom line remains, screw the worker and make the money! It's been so since man discovered he can exploit his fellow man. Any manifestation of the worker standing up for his due is just as natural as the exploiters screwing the screwable.
nb
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If it was 1930, I'd probably be a union organizer. I have no use for unions since my working career started in 1963 though. I've worked in shops with unions and negotiated with them.
Workers were exploited and treated poorly for centuries. Unions stopped most of that and truly fought for and made big gains for the working man. At some point though, companies found that they actually do better fiscally and have better employees by paying a good wage and offering good benefits. This would not have happened without the strong unions.
Sadly, some of the unions are little more than a group of thugs taking dues from workers for their own personal gain. Watch the union boss pull up in his big Caddy to tell the modest workers they should be out there picketing so they can get better benefits. Like bigger contributions to the Union Welfare Fund. At one company we paid the workers more than the contract wages. We had to in order to attract workers in the free market. Supply and demand at work.
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So I guess they had at least three inspectors on duty at the job sight during the entire construction process to inspect and clear every phase before the next phase is allowed to begin to make sure it was done correctly so that it would not pose a hazard to the people in it once the construction is complete. Yeah!.. sure.
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Of course earthquakes aren't an issue in China. Oh, wait...
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Especially since this has nothing to do with productivity. There was a big hooha awhile ago about how China became the second biggest economy passing Japan. That seems to have died down pretty fast after someone noted the population disparity and how much difference there was in GDP produced per worker. Not even close.
--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to
koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
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I recently bought a handbag from eBay. It came from China. Boy does it have a terrible smell. Smells like bad gasoline. I have it airing out in another room I hardly go into. Somebody told me it could be the dye they used. I can't use it until the smell goes away. Maybe I'll set it outside and a squirrel can pee on it and make the smell go away.
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Does it smell like Harbor Freight? I thought that's what China smelled like. ;-)
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Just bought two new 100 LED flashlights made in China and the rubber outer coating smells like tar or burning plastic. I'm airing them out, too. More evidence that China stinks! (-:
-- Bobby G.
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China's 103rd on the infant mortality list with an infant mortality rate (deaths/1,000 live births) of 23.0 and an under-five mortality rate (deaths/1,000 live births)
We come in 33rd with 6.3 and 7.8
The worst places are 194th place Afghanistan with 157.0 and 235.4 and 195th place "winner" Sierra Leone with 160.3 and 278.1, respectively. There death rates, especially for children 5 years and younger, is not so much a medical issue. The high death rate comes from the conficts raging in both countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate
Number one on the UN list (the CIA factbook rankings are slightly different) is Iceland with figure of 2.9 and 3.9. Japan and the Scandavian countries also rank quite high (much higher than us!).
The Chinese government executed the CEO's responsible for the melamine poisoning. It was added to infant formula in order to boost the protein readings on tests. The formula had been watered down for profit reasons, and the melamine was supposed to "cover" for the dilution. There are thousands of Chinese infants now suffering from severe kidney impairment since melamine forms severe kidney stones and the true scale of the disaster may not be known for years. Based on my co-worker's experience with adopting two Chinese girls, they'll be trying to foist a fair number of those kids on us after sanitizing their medical records to conceal the poisoning. My friend's little girl got a very "thorough" and *very* expensive battery of tests done on her by the Chinese adoption doctors, got a totally clean bill of health and when she got her first US checkup was found to be infected with Hep C.
We should consider ourselves lucky that they only added melamine to our pet food, killing our cats and dogs but not our children. Those commies sure learned the worst ways of capitalism in a very short time. The melamine crisis is one of but many problems the Chinese have with their food supply and they have since become much more concerned with making it safer but they're not having what you would call sterling results. And that's even AFTER they put the melamine cheaters to death. So much for the deterrent effect of capital punishment.
-- Bobby G.
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On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 08:23:39 -0500, "Robert Green"

The deterrent effect of capital punishment depends on two factors:
1) probably of being caught/convicted.
2) probably of being executed.
For the melamine scandal the trials/executions where just window dressing to assure the world that China is on top of the problem. If the world press had not publicized the problem, the guilty melamine CEOs would have just received a slap on the wrist.
In China (1) and (2) above are not likely unless the offenders threaten Chinese marketing.
How likely and effective do you think (1) and (2) are for people who threaten the Chinese power structure?
It's always about money and power.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

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wrote Re Re: OT Chinese productivity:

Criminologists even argue about those two because when a person is "seeing red" as many domestic murderers apparently do, they are clearly not thinking about the consequences of their acts. To me, it's a loophole in the theory as significant as the discovery that markets do not behave rationally and people don't always operate (or even understand) what's in their best interest.
But I agree with your assessment in these cases because they really are coldly premeditated. I believe that someone calculated the risks of adding melamine but seriously underestimated the consequences of such adulteration. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that mass-poisoning babies is about as low as you can get on the scale of human depravity. My belief that people aren't born monsters makes me want to believe it *had* to be that the adulterers thought it wasn't as toxic as it turned out to be.

Ya think? (-: They just put the guy who held up a card protesting the death of all those kids in jail for 2.5 years so there's clearly evidence to support the "they'll bury this as fast and deep as they can" theory. I believe that these things really do clean out the bad actors, at least for a while. But eventually, the vigilance slips and another round of disasters occurs.

Not sure of that. They seem to execute people for lots of reasons, and almost as fast as Texas does. (-:
The marketing endangerment issue is probably something one has to add to the risk of getting caught and executed, and least in China. A CEO there has to ask themselves: "Am I pissing off the government big time?" But that's a worry of CEO's worldwide. It's just a fatal worry there. Their brand of capitalism is not ours and one day that will cause some serious friction between us because like wages and water, ideologies seek their own level. We're headed in a socialist direction as former socialist embrace capitalism. At some point, large segments of the populations of both countries will begin to question the transformation. It's already happened to the Sovs.

I long ago realized I can't get into the Chinese mindset. In America, when something goes horribly wrong, they always tend to go after the little guy or worker when in so many cases they were just doing what management told them to do. In China, they cut off the head. I'm for the Chinese way, if only because it has the side effect of lowering excessive executive compensation. (-:

I long time ago I read a book that claimed the reason Neanderthal man was bested by Cro-Magnon because the latter adorned themselves with beads and tattoos which other CM's thought were "kewl" and wanted. So they learned to speak and to trade and to create things TO trade. People who collected shiny seashells in one place began trading with wanderers who had shiny things peculiar to another place. So commerce may well have caused civilization in the first place.
It wasn't long, though, before the ability to communicate and cooperate played into the baser instincts of the CM's because it enabled them develop and refine weapons to hunt down and eradicate the Neanderthals. Of course, it could be some genetic susceptibility to disease that did them in, but I like the tattoo and bead trading hypothesis better. Just watch one kid look at another kid's new toy. I imagine our ancestors operated with what is now a five year old's brain - and maybe much less. Lord of the Flies. Some things haven't changed much in 100,000 years.
-- Bobby G.
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prosecution.I know of a bunch of prosecutors that won't even consider a capital case saying that they can't afford it.
--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to
koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
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constitutionally required according the Supreme Court, the arbiter of such things.
--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to
koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
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