OT Chinese productivity

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On 11/13/2010 8:02 PM, snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

I think you guys are talking about different groups of people, and what retirements they are eligible for. And when did federal workers get dragged into this argument? Us folks under the OLD fed retirement system (CSRS) aren't eligible for SS at all, unless we get a real-world job for ten years after we retire. And there is a dollar offset that I have never bothered to look up. Not sure how it will work for the 'kids' under the new system (FERS) when their time comes.
Can one of you summarize the actual points under discussion before launching another round of insults at each other, please?
--
aem sends...

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Actually, I was responding to this remark they made. "We're bankrupt and you're job is to play shrink on the Usenet. You're an idiot."
What do you get out of their remark? Besides them calling me an idiot. LOL...
BTW, I'm under PERS, but have paid years into SS b/4 being under PERS.
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I see you haven't improved on your reading comprehension. Look a couple lines up, I said "SS takes $1 after "x" amount. You said "Completely false".
Now, I have taught you a lesson. Sorry you try to twist my words, when they're right under your nose. You either have a comprehension problem, can't admit when you're wrong, or both. I'm thinking it's that jealousy thing.

I must be, supplying links to someone who has a reading comprehension problem.

Go back a few lines. You continue to prove you're an idiot.

LOL... Sorry for making you feel like a fool. It's not your fault you're ignorant.
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Actually it should be since the last 20 years or so of 'surplus' have been in put in non-marketable treasury securities that the general fund now has to pay for because they are non-marketable, by law.
--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to
koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
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wrote:

Maybe it should be, but it is what it is. I was pointing out to what's their name, their misunderstanding of SS.
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The worker & the company pay for the pensions, instead of paying into SS like the worker & company. Why do you call them absurd?
Somehow I got the feeling you're jealous of those who planned life better than you did. Now that's absurd.
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They didn't "plan life" at all, johnny. They stole it from future generations.
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Private pensions stole from future generations? LOL... What makes you think you have a right to someone's private pension?
If it's a public pension, the government & EMPLOYEE pay into it. You have no right to their savings. How about giving your 401 to people, oh now that's different.
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Any that aren't 100% funded, yes, and there are damned few of those. That would include almost all state and local pensions and *all* federal pensions.

You're completely clueless.
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Time to put up, or shut up. I supplied you some proof, all you appear to have is a mouth, which can't back anything up.
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You've supplied nothing, other that which proves my point. You are as clueless as they come.
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LOL... Can't read or comprehend, huh? My bad!
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Yes, you can't and yes, you are.
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The diff is, outrageous compensations to one CEO benefit only one. Compensations to unions benefit many. That tired old Star Trek dilemma, the one versus the many, but true.
The reason unions in this country fell into disfavor is not because their cause was unjust, but because union oversight was inevitably left in the hands of the same type of unscrupulous business dirtbags that unions opposed. After forming a union, the rank and file rapidly became secondary to union management greed. Most unions rapidly degerated into a simple monetary power struggle between two fat-cat dirtbag managerial entities with the working man providing the working capital.
At one time, major unions like the UAW were setting the std of living in the US, even though 80% of US working ppl in the US were not getting anywhere near that scale. The avg bloke became resentful that GM janitors were makng $13 hr (this back in early 70s).
....nevermimd. Don't get me started! !
nb
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Doesn't benefit everybody if they are non sustainable. GM was going to close a plant here in Indy. They found a buyer but the deal fell through because the union refused to accept a lower new hire salary. Most of them were GM gypsies who could go to a different plant (and did) but they still made sure the plant was closed so 600 other people couldn't have job and the local schools lost something like $5 million in property taxes alone.
The outrageous compensations (at least over the last 20 years or so) were largely driven by Congress playing around tax laws. If you read K-1s and proxy statements, you will find that most honchoes are paid a salary in the area of $1 million. That is because, under the tax laws, salaries above that are not as easily deductible, thus essentially providing a cap. That same law also took away all tax consequences to "performance based" bonuses or stock options grants. This was to, in the eyes of Congress anyway, to help align the interests of the honchoes with the interests of the shareholders.
What happened in real life, with the stocks going up for the most part during that time, is that they were getting around $1 million to actually run the company (their salary) and 10 or even 100 times that to cook... er run.. the books. All of a sudden the interests of the honchoes were no longer in synch with the shareholders.
Ooops.
Of course now the big bucks have turned into an entitlement.
--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to
koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
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Re: OT Chinese productivity:

Good points.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

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wrote:

I tried to phrase it neutrally because I believe in unions (although my wife does not and her dad was actually a "union buster" for one of the nation's largest chemical companies). However I feel about it, unionized workers have a hard time producing items anywhere near the low cost that a Vietnamese non-union worker getting 200 piasters a day (which, IIRC, was about a dollar). And like it or not, that's one aspect of globalization: we now have to compete with low-wage earners across the world. One of the few strategies that can succeed against ultra-low labor costs is to compete on quality, not on price.

No argument here. Unions became somehow associated with Communism and much law enforcement "muscle" became dedicated to eradicating them. The unions didn't help their own cause by installing guys like Jimmy Hoffa.

I have some rabid anti-union friends who can describe a lot of situations where union rules raised the costs of project unconscionably but I can point to an equal number of cases where employers would have paid workers in popsicle sticks without union representation (hyperbole alert!).
As I've said before, if you're the company founder, there should be no limits on your compensation - it was your baby and you raised it to be a winner. The problem, for me, is when some outsider thinks that taking over the helm of a "grown up" and prosperous company merits the same compensation level as the man/woman/people that often risked all they had to growt a business like HP into a national concern with enormous revenues. These "downstream" CEOs are mostly looters, IMHO, and they get paid outrageous sums for very little contribution to the company's bottom line. Our businesses would likely be far more competitive if a CEO's $38M severance package got plowed back into the company in the form of more jobs, capital investment and even plain old advertising. The CEO deserves the same kind of severance package most workers get: A hardy handshake and a COBRA application.
It's important that people are allowed to get rich off their ideas and hard work. It's far less important that a guy who had nothing at all to do with growing the business gets the same compensation as a founder.

Hell, why not? This OT thread is actually labeled OT. I am sure that there are many here that feel unions are a cancer on business and without them, we would never have had a failing manufacturing sector.
-- Bobby G.
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Yet, especially in the US, the competition is on price. Look at the rise of WalMart, et al. Back in the day, WM used to advertise their made in America stuff. Few bought it, so they tossed in the towel. Weren't the only ones. I, once again, have to invoke the Pogo Principle: We have met the enemy and he is us.

Vegas came from the Teamsters.
--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to
koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
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wrote:

And some stand on the sidelines cheering, as we turn the USA into a third world country.
We don't have to compete with a third world nation wages. That is unless people want to see our Nation turned into a third world country.
If you've done any traveling. The USA already seems decades behind industrialized countries, especially in the transportation. If you ever get a chance, travel. Coming back to the USA appears like you step back in time. Amazing & sad at the same time.
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<stuff snipped>

How, exactly, would you accomplish liberating us from competing against China when 9 out of 10 items in most every store in the nation comes from China or some other low wage country? When the unfunded pension and benefits liabilities of the state and local governments snowball in the not to distant future, we'll surely be way up Shit's Creek with a leaky boat and no paddles. Sadly, I think we're already way too far down the line in this process to reverse it short of a comet destroying the other side of the world.

You're preaching to the choir. We're way down the list on lots of things these days. High speed rail and internet access, infant mortality, bang for our health care bucks, etc. When Chinese companies began buying US factories and brand names like they were Black Friday sale items, the writing on the wall became clear. The problem is, how do we reverse that trend? Obama could have put that TARP money into building the the US into the world's premier solar cell makers and let all the speculators that got burned shift for themselves, but instead he paid off the people that crashed the economy from the savings and taxes of people who did nothing but work hard all their lives, never expecting something for nothing the way Wall Streeters do.
When we lose our reputation as the investment center of the world (it's already passing to China) completely is when we'll be circling the drain of history, waving the American flag to the last gurgle. If you know how to stop this process, I am all ears. I don't think it can be done because it's basically physics. China et al. will drag our standard of living down as the dollars we send them pull their standard of living up. Water and money seek their own levels. As the Japanese say, the standing up nail gets hammered down.
-- Bobby G.
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