OT Car repair

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wrote:

Nonsense. Try reading if you can't think. There is no reason to even pull the lower hose. If you do, you'd better replace it.
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wrote:

Except some cars no longer HAVE block drains. Just like some automatic transmissions no longer have dipsticks and fill tubes.
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote in

An engine without a block drain does not need one: the engineers will have designed the block to drain through the radiator. This is why I said "if applicable" in my original reply. But the fact that the OP was only able to re-install about half the reported capacity /strongly/ suggests that he has left a lot of old coolant in the block.
If the OP's engine has a block drain (or two), then it is NOT sufficient to simply "flush" the block by attempting to run the engine with plain water through it, and it is an extremely BAD idea to run the engine with plain water as the coolant. Running an engine with plain water can damage the head gasket(s).
The correct approach is, with the engine *COLD* and *NOT RUNNING*, to drain the rad AND block. With the drains open, run plain water through the block and rad until the water runs clear, let it drain again, close the drains, then re-fill using the correct procedure as per the factory instructions.
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ALL modern engines have coolant-replacement intervals. ALL of them.
I am unaware of ANY automotive engine sold into the North American market without a recovery bottle since about the late '70s. Maybe even before then

The coolant degradation I'm talking about has nothing to do with oxygen (although oxidation can be an issue), but instead has to do with preventing boiling at the fire rings. Each time the coolant is brought to "nucleate boiling" (DAGS), a little of the additives are consumed. Eventually consumption reaches the point where replacement of the coolant is necessary or additives must be replenished.
Ray Bohacz covered this very issue in a recent issue of Hemmings Classic Car. Last couple of months. You could look it up.
--
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On 8/28/2013 6:34 PM, Tegger wrote:

Yup, and so do the oldies.
I'd go so far as to say that every automotive fluid has a replacement interval, but sometimes the manufacturer's idea of what the lifetime of the vehicle is is shorter than you plan on keeping it. (think about that for a second, it actually makes sense.)

Some of us have cars built before then :)

Don't doubt that... I remember reading his columns in the sister mag, forget what it was called, Muscle Machines maybe? Had a subscription for a while but let it lapse, not for any good reason, just didn't have time to keep up with the scene anymore. He seemed like he had a pretty good handle on things.
My only point was, today we're accustomed to multi-year coolant replacement intervals. The old 50's and 60's stuff was designed to have the coolant replaced every year; if you don't want to do that, I would retrofit a 2-way rad cap and a bottle.
nate
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On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 23:37:16 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Here's good info - easy to see. http://hellafunctional.com/?pb9 Might surprise some the pure anti-freeze freezes at 8F. 50/50 is a good mix up north. -40F protection. It's a bit overkill for most places, but an easy 1:1 mix to do. The additives degrade, so a less mix would require changing more often. Many people might remember the "old days" when running almost pure water was common until wintertime You would lose coolant all summer from the rad cap popping, or maybe a broken hose. Just fill it with water until winter approached, then drain the rad and add a gallon or two of anti-freeze. If you dally and a cold snap catches you, you could be hurting. Lost a radiator that way. Also had to pour hot water on a number of other peoples' radiators that froze up in cold snaps. Used to be that way with washer fluid too. People would put fluid without anti-freeze in the tank, and it would still be there when winter rolled around. No spray, Best to use washer fluid with anti-freeze and only add 50/50 to the radiator all year round.

Doesn't matter anyway. It's asking for trouble. Leave it sealed up, and pull the lower rad hose. You should inspect those hoses anyway, and replace them if there's any doubt about their condition. Same with a rad petcock. Don't even touch it. Most now are cheap plastic and it's a good chance you'll need a new one as soon as you open it. And for what, a tiny dribble of water if you're lucky? Takes all day. Always flush with clean water. I don't use hose connectors. Just drain it by pulling the lower hose, and refill with water. Run it for a few minutes after the thermostat opens up. Wait half an hour for cool down, then repeat the process. After emptying it the second time, you'll see it's clean water coming out. No worry about even a gallon left in the block. Close it up and pour in half the system capacity with 100% anti-freeze. Top off with water. Done.
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote in

Do not run the engine when flushing. All engines should be flushed when the block and rad are cool to the touch.

Actually, it's not. Not in the way that automotive engines need it to be.
Go read Ray Bohacz's article. The article is in Hemming's Classic Car from the last couple of months. You won't do this, of course.

Go read Ray Bohacz's article before you accuse me of subscribing to a "myth". The article is in Hemming's Classic Car from the last couple of months. You won't do this, of course.

You appear to be thinking that I said that all engines have block drains. I did not.
Read my post above: I said all blocks COULD BE DRAINED. The method of drain is up to the manufacturer.
EVERY vehicle on your list has a way to drain the block (even if inconvenient). EVERY vehicle on your list has a coolant change interval. As I asserted all along.
--
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wrote:

And if you are flushing the motor and running it at the same time it will never GET any more than barely warm to the touch.

I didn't say it was a better coolant all-round - just better at removing heat. Learn to READ. I have been a mechanic since the sixties, and have taught both high school and trade level auto mechanics - I DO know what I'm talking about.

I didn't say there was not a specified change interval and you DID say all engines have block drains - and the only way tototally drain SOME of the engines I listed is to remove the engine os stand the vehicle on end. - or remove the engine mounts, or other similar very unlikely methods.
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote in

Actually, it's not. Not in the way that automotive engines need it to be. Go read Ray Bohacz's article.
I'll partially summarize what I remember from Bohacz's article: Plain water has too much surface tension. High surface tension means that the boundary layer is too tenacious, and tends to change phase (boil) before it can be stripped away to be replaced by cooler water. Once the water changes phase, heat transfer essentially stops, and localized overheating begins.

Go read Ray Bohacz's article.
If you're truly the teacher that you claim to have been, then you will be intrigued that there might be information out there that you may not know.

I did not say that. On Wednesday the 28th I said that if the engine did not have a block drain that it was meant to drain through the rad. Which was incorrect, of course: some engines require that you pull the lower rad hose for a block drain.

Or just pull the lower rad hose, which is what I discovered when I looked up all the engines you mentioned.
--
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wrote:

So you add a surfactant/ wetting agent like water - wetter (redline) or equivalent to the water.

And how do you drain a reverse flow lt1 or l99??? Both rad hoses enter the top of the engine.
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On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 17:54:18 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I would read Ray's article if I had a Hemmings Subscription. By the way, it's in the August 2013 issue - which I do not have, as I am not a subscriber.

Water Wetter" is designed to reduce hot spots in your cylinder head. It does this by reducing the build-up of water vapor in any superheated areas. The bad thing about having hot spots in your cylinder head (read combustion chamber) is that they can promote pre-ignition - definitely a bad thing. This harks back to Smokey Yunick's theory of "soft combustion chambers". Any sharp edges in your combustion chamber (around valve seats for example) may tend to get very hot (even red hot) during operation. These areas of the combustion chamber can then form local hot spots in the cooling passages. Thus, even though your bulk coolant temperature is well below its boiling point (i.e. your gauge reads just fine), there may be localized boiling in some regions of the coolant tract.
This localized boiling can cause a layer of water vapor to form over the hot spot. This vapor forms an insulative blanket and prevents heat from leaving this area, thus making the hot spot even worse. But reducing the surface tension of the water makes it easier for vapor bubbles to leave the surface of the cylinder head and allows the bubbles to convect heat away from the area. Something that changes the surface tension of a liquid is called a "surfactant". It does not take very much surfactant to significantly change the surface tension of water. Hence, you do not need to add very much "Water Wetter" in order for it to do its job.
An additional benefit of using "Water Wetter" (in conjunction with 100% water) in you cooling system is that water has an extremely high heat capacity. Thus a gallon of 100% water can carry more heat away from you engine than an equivalent gallon of 50/50 water and coolant. Water also has a high thermal conductivity which increases the convection of heat away from the coolant passage walls and into the free stream of the liquid flowing through the passages.
From: http://www.e30m3project.com/e30m3performance/myths/more_myths1/Water_Wetter/water_wetter.htm
And are you also aware that "vapour phase" cooling is more efficient than liquid cooling?? It takes a LOT more heat to cause a liquid to boil than it does to raise the temperature of the liquid. Water's latent heat of vapourization is just over 970 BTU per lb. That means it takes about 5 times as much heat to boil a pound of water as it does to heat water from freezing to boiling. So vapourizing that bit of water does more to cool the hotspot than heating the water would - as long as 212F is not a critical temperature to the engine component.
Not saying that localized boiling is good for today's automotive engines - but vapour phase cooling is as old as the internal combustion engine and as modern as tomorrow.
The What and Why of Waste Heat Recovery
One of the most important equipment components in an engine driven equipment installation, particularly Co generation installations, is the Waste Heat Recovery System. This system must be designed to FIRST provide positive engine cooling and SECOND obtain maximum economical heat recovery while insuring reliability and longevity of equipment.
As a "rule of thumb," reciprocating engines are 30% efficient. That is, of the fuel energy input; 30% goes to shaft horsepower; 30% to jacket water heat; 30% to exhaust heat; and 10% to radiation, oil heat, and other losses.
One of the oldest and most successful forms of heat recovery employs VAPORPHASE (ebullient) cooling of the reciprocating engine. The process of the Ebullient cooling involves the natural circulation of jacket water at or near saturation temperature and engine cooling is accomplished through utilization of the heat of vaporization. This is the simplest and least costly form of waste heat recovery.
Some of the benefits of VAPORPHASE cooling are, elimination of the jacket water circulating pump, extended engine life due to uniform temperatures throughout the engine (normally 2-3 degrees differential between inlet and outlet), recovered heat in the form of low pressure steam (up to 15 PSIG) and all of the heat rejected to the jacket water is recovered.
- From http://www.vaporphase.net/about.htm You want to do some real scholarly reading on the subject of "nucleat boiling" in internal combustion engines???
Read http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs/13356/InTech-Increased_cooling_power_with_nucleate_boiling_flow_in_automotive_engine_applications.pdf .
You don't even need a subscription. Nucleat boiling already serves a very strong role in automotive engine cooling, and will become much more commonly exploited in the future.
Want some more reading to educate yourself on the physics of boiling, and the science of automotive coolants/cooling???
Read this: http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03987.htm
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On Thursday, August 29, 2013 12:50:19 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

the

Tegger should take that up with Prestone. They make a radiator flushing product, been selling it for decades. Here are the instructions:
1.With engine off and cool, remove radiator cap.* Drain radiator then clos e draincock.
2.Pour entire contents of Prestone® Super Radiator Flush into radiator an d fill with water. For systems larger that 12 quarts, use two bottles.
3.Run engine with heater on highest temperature setting for 10 minutes afte r reaching normal operating temperature.
4.With engine off and cool, remove radiator cap, drain radiator, and close draincock. Refill with water and replace radiator cap to fully closed posi tion. Repeat step #3.
5.Stop engine and allow to cool. Remove radiator cap, drain system and clo se draincock. Add enough recommended coolant to achieve a 50-70% concentra tion. Top off radiator with water. Replace radiator cap to fully closed p osition. Run engine for 20 minutes to mix coolant/water.
6.If equipped with a non-pressurized coolant reservoir, rinse, drain, and r efill with a 50-70% solution of the coolant and water.
They run the car for 10 mins first with water and the flushing product, then again in step 4 for 10 mins with just water.
I agree with you. You don't want to run on pure water for an extended period of time because antifreeze provides corrosion inhibitors and lubrication for the water pump. But running it on water for a few minutes at idle while flushing it out is done all the time with no ill effects. It it's good enough for Prestone, it's good enough for me.
Also, I'd rather do a couple of flushs and refills instead of trying to get all the mixture out by opening block drains, etc. Who wants to screw around with a block drain, especially an older one, that could snap off, leak later, etc? The only downside to the multi flush approach is that you do wind up with more liquid that has to be properly disposed of.

.

om

You are correct there too. It's my understanding that in race cars for example, they use the min amount of antifreeze for the application because the more water, the better it is at absorbing heat.
Learn to READ. I have been a mechanic since the

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Well, he did say that some methods that you would have to do might be inconvenient. I wonder what he thinks happens when you take one of those cars in to a service shop? I can see it now, customer gets a $1500 bill because they pulled the engine to turn it upside down and drain it...... I'm sure that goes on all the time.....
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If your engine is so far gone that you need to employ a chemical flush, then the possible slight damage caused by running pure water for 10 minutes is the least of your worries.
--
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On Thursday, August 29, 2013 7:23:49 PM UTC-4, Tegger wrote:

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Non response noted. I gave you Prestone, which has 50+ years of experience with auto cooling systems. They clearly say you can run an auto on water for 10 mins at idle when flushing. If that advice was wrong, you'd think they would have been sued out of business. Their coolant flush product is in every auto parts store in the country, Walmart, everywhere. We'd all like to see your reference that says using water for 10 mins to flush an engine is going to damage it. Like CL, I've done it on cars and had zero problems. engine.
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Note my actual wording above: "possible slight damage".
Running pure water DOES cause damage. But that damage is cumulative. Ten minutes is nothing; two years would be substantial. My reference is the Ray Bohacz article that nobody wants to bother reading.
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On Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:01:12 PM UTC-4, Tegger wrote:

I believe we were talking about changing antifreeze and flushing a cooling system. That process should be 10 mins, not 2 years. I think everyone has acknowledged that running water for any extended period, ie normal operation is a bad idea.
My reference is the Ray

If you provide a link, I'll take a look.
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wrote:

Tegger doesn't know anything he can't read in a book, or in the "coles notes" version of the book on the internet.
Chemical flushes are the only way to get rid of even moderately severe scale and rust buildup in a cast iron block - and getting rid of the scale and rust buildup is the only way to reduce or eliminate the,zone boiling he was ranting about a few messages back.
As I said before, obviously not a mechanic.
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote in

And you're clearly no kind of technician.
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If you have rust and scale in /any/ modern engine, then you're either lacking in maintenance technique and materials, or have bought from the wrong automaker.
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wrote:

When you are a professional mechanic / technician you work on vehicles of all kinds - from all manufacturers, and with all levels of maintenance. Not all customers follow the manufacturer's specifications, or take their mechanic's advice. So you need to be prepared to service and repair vehicles in all kinds of conditions. So you NEED chemical flushes for some vehicles. It returns the cooling system to serviceable condition - at least partly undoing the "damage" done by inadequate serviceing. It is part of the maintenance teqnique and materials REQUIRED to service some vehicles.
And if you do a coolant flush and change without actually flushing and cleaning the cooling system, and you leave 25% of the old coolant in the engine, you are comitting fraud. You can get away with that on your own car, but not on a customer's car.
It's been 41 years since I got my mechanic's licence - 10 years of that spent as a dealership service manager. Hundreds of happy, satisfied customers. Because I made sure their vehicles were properly and effectively serviced.
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