OT: Apple says screw you law enforcement!

Page 1 of 7  
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I'd say 95% confidence Apple will lose. More interesting is that this is once again a good example of the media spending a lot of time covering something and getting most of it wrong. The fact that Tim Cook is lying, doesn't help. He's claiming the court is asking Apple to put a backdoor into it's products. Media has it all incorrect too, widely reporting that Apple is being asked to break the encryption.
Truth is the court order is very specific. For the one terrorist iPhone they are being asked to:
1 - disable the feature where if you incorrectly enter the password 10 times, the phone erases all data.
2 - provide a means so that the FBI can try passwords via an electronic means, eg Bluetooth, wifi, etc., instead of via the keyboard.
BTW, Trump is calling for a boycott on all Apple products until they comply.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
trader_4 wrote:

is going on, and then Apple will need to explain how those who died were less important than those with I-Phones. Privacy is fine, but they are defending a dead terrorist privacy rights. Once you establish that the owner is such, it is not like you are defending the rights of innocent owners.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2/20/2016 10:53 AM, Ken wrote:

This overlooks the obvious: you can run an "app" on the phone. That app can implement ANY encryption technology that you choose! I.e., one that *Apple* can't crack! One that may change more often than a "mainstream phone supplier" (Apple) would likely want it to change (because Apple wants things to be compatible; bad guys only care that THEY all have the same "code"!).
Bad guys can throw a phone into a meat grinder or incinerate it at extremely high temperatures. Remove the battery, carry it out into the desert and drop it in a sand dune. Etc.
You've got a group that everyone *claims* is "tech savvy" and you're HOPING to "not be too far BEHIND them"?
Paraphrasing your initial comment:
"All it will take is one terrorist attack AFTER APPLE HAS BEEN COERCED INTO COMPLIANCE, and then THE FBI will need to explain how those folks died DESPITE the lost privacy."
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Don Y wrote:

forgiving someone who refuses to try.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Per Don Y:

That was what jumped into my mind the first time I heard pundits discussing the issue.
Understood that the immediate issue is disabling a certain feature on a single phone and writing an app to try many passwords against that phone... but I think their endgame is precedent because it really is a problem for law enforcement not to be able to get to these devices if/when they can demonstrate a legitimate need.
But so far, I have not heard anybody bring up two obvious-to-me points:
1) As you say, encryption can be implemented many ways. It seems like Apple is just putting this in to get a little marketing edge over the Android world - and, maybe, to avoid the hassle/exposure of guarding their database of backdoor PWs from intruders like China, North Korea, or organized crime interests.
But, in the end, it seems like the functionality will become universal as software solutions emerge, Android makers play catch-up, and computing power increases (I would guess encryption takes more horsepower implemented via an app than a chip).
So, within a few years, any Bad Guy with half a brain will have unbreakable encryption on their devices regardless of what happened with Apple. OTOH, maybe mainframe computing power will increase too - so that big organizations will have the horsepower to crack even the strongest encryption within a reasonable time
Should be interesting....
2) The precedent that the government seems to be looking to set would go beyond that single iPhone and beyond iPhones in general.
For instance, one of the outfits I work for gives me a laptop so I can VPN into their system. Said laptop has an encrypted hard drive - as do all of their corporate laptops - and I am guessing that if I do not supply the password, nobody on God's Green Earth is going to be able to read that drive without a few hundred years of supercomputer time.....
So I would think the government will be wanting a back door into corporate laptops too.... and once that backdoor would get out into the public sphere a lot of corporations would be feeling a lot of pain.
--
Pete Cresswell

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Hi Pete,
On 2/20/2016 12:46 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

So, lets make it illegal to install "non-Apple-sanctioned" (and secretly blessed by the spooks) apps on phones? And, lets make sure there is no way an EXTERNAL DEVICE that can be manufactured by a hobbyist (e.g., $5 Raspberry Pi) can't interface to a STANDARD Apple-sanctioned app and exhange data that has been encrypted OUTSIDE of Apple's sight!
(i.e., we'll just remove any connectors, display, speaker and microphone from the phone and make it unusable by bad guys... OR, anyone else!)

Exactly. So, what's the outcome? Make it illegal to sell a device that doesn't contain "crackable" protections? And, make it illegal to publish information on how to BUILD such a device (even if "not for profit")?
And, just hope the bad guys obey *those* laws (while ignoring other laws!)?

Or, hackers wanting to hold your device hostage for ransomware.

Depends on the encryption technology used.
E.g., a one-time pad takes very little computational power to implement (i.e., YOU could encrypt and decrypt using a pencil and paper sitting at your kitchen table)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-time_pad

Esp if said encryption is intentionally designed with (secret) flaws.
Anyone recall "40 bit" encryption? :>

I see it as disheartening. It tells me that the folks who are supposed to be keeping us safe have no real options other than playing catch-up.
"Yeah, we've got some arabs, here, who want to know how to fly large aircraft. But, they aren't interested in knowing how to LAND said aircraft (presumably, that would be the FIRST thing you'd want to know as the ground can be pretty hard when encountered from a great height)..."
You *know* there will be stories about how the spooks were unable to prevent an attack despite having access to all that telephone metadata.
Or, the encrypted contents of phones (recall phones can be accessed remotely! You'd have to be pretty naive to think the spooks haven't figured out how to remotely, surreptitiously install an app on a specific phone that was "of interest" to them!)

Businesses (here) are concerned that commerce will move to foreign suppliers -- who provide better legal protections for this sort of stuff ("global market"). Why keep your sensitive corporate data in a cloud service run by a US firm -- subject to US laws that make its contents available (probably with a SECRET search order) -- when the internet can let you access a cloud service running in another country that doesn't have those same "risks"?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Per Don Y:

Or, come to think of it, some disgruntled Apple employee....
--
Pete Cresswell

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2/20/2016 3:04 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

Actually makes you wonder how they control the "keys"! Sure wouldn't want Bob going to work for Samsung and taking a copy of the key with him!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 5:15:34 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

Apple doesn't currently have a key to control. That is one of the essential points that make the system both secure and invulnerable to law enforcement.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Per trader_4:

Not for IOS8 - but, from what I have heard so far, they have keys for IOS7 devices.
Or have I got it wrong?
--
Pete Cresswell

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 7:11:27 PM UTC-5, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

IDK, 7 from 8, but from what Tim Cook is saying, my understanding is that their position, their philosophy, is that they don't have any keys to the encryption, that they remain solely in the possession of the user. Which is consistent with what the court order, obtained by the FBI, asks for. It doesn't ask for Apple to provide a key, it asks only that they disable the 10 strikes erase and provide a means to enter passwords electronically instead of via the keypad.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2/20/16 5:14 PM, Don Y wrote:

before they get kidnapped by Russian Mafia or other ne'er do well and tortured for the program?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 3:16:08 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

I don't see why we have to figure out the outcome, the endgame of all encryption, for all devices, for the whole world, etc. That is an interesting debate, but it's not what's being asked for here in the current case. What is being asked for is very specific and very limited:
Prevent this one iPhone from erasing the evidence on it if the failed PWD attempts reach 20 and create some way for the FBI to be able to enter PWDS via Bluetooth, usb, wifi, etc.
All that has to be determined is if that is legal or not.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Per trader_4:

That seems to be a point of departure for some of the pundits I have heard giving forth on the matter: yes, the government's explicit, up-front request is just for that single phone.... but some of the pundits are saying that the *real* agenda is that they are trying to build precedent. Slippery slope and all that....
PBS News Hour Weekend just had a little segment about John McAfee of anti-virus fame offering to do the job on that single iPHone for free within some single-digit number of days - and eat his shoe on national television if he fails: http://bgr.com/2016/02/18/iphone-encryption-john-mcafee-fbi-eat-his-shoe/
--
Pete Cresswell

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 7:16:26 PM UTC-5, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

I don't doubt that. But the court has to deal with the here and now, the actual issue, not theoretical what ifs. Those are for lawmakers to decide. And Cook is being dishonest, claiming that the govt is asking that they build a backdoor into their products. The govt probably has asked that, certainly would like that, etc, but it isn't what's being asked by the court order.

I made another post where I suggested that possibility. How would Apple like it if the FBI offered a $100K reward to anyone that could show how to do what they ask on an iPhone 5. Apple, do you feel better or worse now? I think Cook has to be an idiot to be gambling the future of the company. How about some place gets blown up, major attack, and it turns out later that the perps had links, communication with that phone that Apple won't help with?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2/20/16 5:42 PM, trader_4 wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:45:17 -0700, Don Y

It's not the app they want help cracking. It's the "10 tries and we've deleted everything" the govt wants to bypass.
I don't agree with Tony that there's no code that can't be cracked, but there are probably many that can't be cracked in 10 tries.

This all is about phones that were still in use when the bad guy got killed or captured.

This is not paraphrasing. It's rewriting.

Both are true.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 12:53:42 PM UTC-5, Ken wrote:

yes, thats all it wil take to cripple apple. a terrorist attack while apple plays politics with the issue. espically if info on the latest attack is later found o that locked phone.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:11:26 -0800 (PST), trader_4

If the media reported it accurately it would not get the attention they want. I do understand you don't want to start down a slippery slope, but the way you put it from the court order it does not should so bad.
IMO, we should never have heard about it. The FBI should have quietly approached Apple, "pssst, can you do us a little favor?" and never made it public. They guy is dead, the guy is a terrorist.

Just the publicity machine in action.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:11:26 -0800 (PST), trader_4

I think apple is making a mistake but the first mistake was the FBI not doing this very quietly so the precedent was not set in the first place. Now Apple has put the government in a corner forcing the geeks at NSA to crack the whole i-phone security apparatus and making all I phones vulnerable. I have no doubt the boys at the puzzle palace in Ft Meade can do it even if it means taking the flash chip off the card and installing it in a machine designed to do nothing but read encrypted flash chips.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.