OT: Anyone following the Malaysian 777 missing/crashed?

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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

There actually have been some "experts" suggesting basically that same thing. One noted that it could have been hijacked and flown somewhere else and landed. Of course how they carved out a big enough landing strip in an area remote enough that nobody would notice the odd jet landing, put in the things needed to land the plane safely (most likely at night), keep over 100 passengers from getting unruly, and then housing and/or killing them wasn't exactly fleshed out.
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<stuff snipped>

And when they realized that they hadn't worked out the important details of holding a plane and passengers alive for ransom, they crashed the plane into the ocean.
I am surprised the Chinese aren't claiming the US has a new super drone or laser weapon that can turn airliners into dust without leaving a trace.
I still think given that the oil rig worker claims to have seen a fireball and the data stops in the area of the first turn that's where they'll eventually find the wreckage. I seem to remember a bunch of people lost at sea that were overflown by a number of search planes before someone noticed them. I would also draw a big circle on the map that indicated how far the plane could fly before running out of fuel and search that circumference as well. That's an awful lot of ground and sea to cover. This is appearing more and more like the work of Rodan or Godzilla. (-:
All jetliners should be modified to leave a trail of bread crumbs . . .
Or their insurers should demand they all get LoJack installed. This could be the incident that causes changes to the black box system where all the crucial data to find the lost plane doesn't reside on the lost plane. These automatic maintenance transponders are a start. Having radar transponders that are hidden away or require a key code to shut them down would be another simple fix. As simple as locking the damn cabin doors turned out to be. I read something that implied the MH370 pilots were known to have unlocked the cabin door to entertain female visitors.
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Robert Green wrote:

The oil worker could have seen the flaring of gas happening at a distant rig. That can be ruled in or out by knowing the location of all rigs in the area.
Gas flaring might be an uncommon necessity in that area, hence the worker wouldn't have been accustomed to seeing it.
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I would expect a rig worker to be able to distinguish between a flare of burning gas rising up from the water and a plume of flame heading down towards the water. Of course, we did have reports of flaming wreckage on TWA 800 that looked like a missile rising from the surface so I guess anything's possible, including mirages that can make things like whole towns appear where they are not.
Check out the remarkable photos at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fata_Morgana_(mirage)
<<This optical phenomenon occurs because rays of light are bent when they pass through air layers of different temperatures in a steep thermal inversion where an atmospheric duct has formed>>
It will be interesting to see if the plane's wreckage is found within "sight" distance of the rig the worker was on. If there's routine flaring he must have been used to seeing it. More likely he's a "false witness" seeking fame but I doubt it. I would like to know more about whether he saw and reported the object BEFORE anyone knew that MH370 was missing. It was implied in some reports but never clearly stated.
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Bobby G.




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I am not sure they know what they saw or what they are doing. As the Onion puts it:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/malaysian-airlines-expands-investigation-to-includ,35524/
<<Additionally, the airline confirmed it had expanded its active search area to include a several-hundred-square-mile zone in the Indian Ocean as well as each of the seven or 22 additional spatial dimensions posited by string theory. "At this stage, we can't rule anything out: not crew interference with the transponders, not a catastrophic electrical failure, not the emergence of a complex topological feature of space-time such as an Einstein-Rosen bridge that could have deposited the flight at any location in the universe or a different time period altogether, nothing."
"Could a parallel universe have immediately swelled up from random cosmological fluctuation according to the multiverse theory and swallowed the flight into its folds, or could ice have built up on an airspeed sensor? Those are both options we are currently considering," Rahman added. "Everything's on the table. That is, insofar as anything exists at all, which we're also looking into.">>
It's still right there, like Babylon 4, only dimensionally shifted.
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Nice, second B5 ref in a couple of days. Sweet. Although, in a similar vein, I haven't been able to find out if the tracking sensors saw a blue British police box flying by the area.
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wrote:

I've been busy watching the DVDs and wondering who stole what from whom. I'm now of the opinion that any SciFi series that lasts more than a few seasons will invariably do an episode that's almost a total "mirror" rip-off of a similar series. Now if you want to see really bad SciFi, check out "Slave Girls from Beyond Infinity." (-: It stands in a class by itself.
I rented it because the site that reviewed "Millenium" had it listed as a "must be seen to be believed" kind of film. They got that right. One great moment was when they resorted to the standard SciFi trope: "Let's reverse the polarity and see if that works." Did hooking up a car battery backwards ever help anyone? You'd think so based on how many SciFi films recommend the procedure.

"Who" are you talking about, Doc? (-:
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On Monday, March 10, 2014 2:15:46 PM UTC-4, nam sak wrote:

Because according to Interpol which maintains a database of lost and stolen PPS, only a few countries check it. Interpol souded pissed too. You would think that each country would have their own database of valid PP that would be supplied by all countries, together with Interpol info on stolen PPS, wanted criminals, suspected terrorists, etc. That it would be updated once a day or so. I think we all assumed something like that was in place post 911.
Even worse, media is reporting Malaysia is saying that there were several prior incidents of people trying to board planes with fake passports or explosives. I wonder who they shared that info with?

Well if it has some catastrophic event, ie a major structural failure either from a defect or bomb, that would do it. It loses power to the transponder, radios, etc. And if it's over water and goes in relatively intact, there might not be much debris. AirFrance lost a 330 over the Atlantic Ocean after leaving Brazil a few year ago. I think it took 5 days to find that crash site and 2 years to locate the black boxes.

There is and they lost contact about 50 mins into the flight, while it was over the ocean between Malaysia and Vietnam. That is where the data apparently ended. There are also websites that track flights using the transponders on board, not radar. In the case of MA370, those receptions ended the same time. If you want to see it, go to Flightradar24.com Move the map to Malaysia area. You'll see current flights. On the upper left, you can click on playback. Enter Mar 7 16:45 In a minute or so, you'll see flights appear. Mouse over the ones leaving Kuala Lumpur headed up to the right and you'll find MA370. You can also track the same flights on prior days and see how all the data is there continously as it moves from Kuala Lumpur over Vietnam, on to Hong Kong area, etc. On the missingflight there is nothing after about 45 mins into the flight, it's just gone.
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the day is coming where all airliners will send a satellite link, with real time cockpit conversation, all the black box info, location in real time.
so when something goes wrong there will be lots of info......
all recorded on a secure server somewhere, instantly available.
apparently north korea launced a missle around the same time as the disappearance. it the loss can be tied to north korea, its time to bomb the countries leaders, and take him out
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bob haller wrote:

We practically have that now. The Air France flight that went down in 2009 was transmitting some engineering data to a satellite network during the flight.

China and Japan would have gone ballistic because both of them would have detected such a missle.
And it would have caused mid-air disintigration and a large debris field.
I doubt that North Korea would have the technology for a missle that could take out a plane so far away.
I doubt that even the US could do such a thing, given the distance and given the speed of the target.
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On Sunday, March 9, 2014 2:32:20 PM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:

I was wondering that about the 777. I wonder if it transmits similar data back to the airline. If so, no mention has been made about it.

Not to mention that the flight path of said missle from NK would have violated multiple nations airspace to get to where it was going. I haven't heard anything like that about this incident. Probably confusing this with a missle that NK did launch a week or so ago, unannounced, that went near a flight path that a China airliner had passed by shortly before. The Chinese are pissed and told their crazy cousin about it, like that will do any good....
That's one thing I've never understood. China has so many great cities that are thriving and it's become a majore economic power. Why they allow the nut jobs in NK to continue what they are doing is beyond me. Any nukes they develop, they could easily have some nut over there turn and start threatening China or actually use them against them.
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Domain Name: MH370.COM Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.godaddy.com Creation Date: 2014-03-07 20:06:43 Registrar Registration Expiration Date: 2015-03-07 20:06:43 Registrar: GoDaddy.com, LLC
Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 (MH370) was reported missing at 02:40 (UTC + 8) on March 8, 2014 (Friday, March 7, 2014 at 10:35:00 AM PST).
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I wrote:

10 March 2014 Last updated at 09:08 ET
How the MH370 website ended up on eBay
=======
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73477000/jpg/_73477893_dd.jpg
A screenshot of the mh370.com website The holding page for the site was included in the eBay auction ======= As people flock online to find out about the the missing MH370 flight, an eBay seller has sought to profit from the trend by "flipping" the domain name MH370.com.
The hashtag #PrayforMH370 has been tweeted more than 1.8 million times since news of the missing flight broke on Friday night - and been used to share messages of condolence and support. But in an attempt to monetise the flow of traffic, somebody has registered a web address and tried to sell it for $5,000 (£3,000).
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73478000/jpg/_73478610_2.jpg
An eBay auction for the domain told potential buyers why bidding could be advantageous: "Buy this domain today and sell it later on for thousands of dollars," it began. "Dozens of companies, families of victims, will want to buy it from you. Pay little money today and make huge profit tomorrow," it continued.
An eBay user called "chypriotte" hoped to sell the domain for $5,000
Registering web domain names and then selling them - known as "flipping" - is common practice online. Some labelled the sale "despicable" on Twitter, and the outcry appears to have had an effect. The auction was closed before it ended, and the site does not appear to have changed hands.
So who initially registered the domain? BBC Trending has not been able to confirm the person's identity so far.
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-26515165
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Using Microsoft MapPoint and drawing radar circles centered on various cities in Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore, Vietnam, and using a radius of 250 miles (which seems to be the upper limit of civillian aviation radar), if I wanted to hijack a plane flying straight from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing (2790 miles),
The normal track of the flight doesn't seem to be a straight line, as indicated here:
http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/MAS-missing_route-map.jpg
The location of the "possible crash" point on that image is about 1,100 miles from Kuala Lumpur.
The wikipedia article on MH370 says:
========The aircraft's last known position before disappearing off ATC radar was 6°55?15?N 103°34?43?E? / ?6.92083°N 103.57861°E? / 6.92083; 103.57861 =========== That location is within 10 miles of the discovery of a black trail (of smoke? Oil?) in the image put forward by n2yo.com below.
Kuala Lumpur radar lost contact with the plane at 1:22 am. At that time, the plane had been in the air for about 40 minutes. That distance would have been 285 miles from Subang Air Traffic Control, and presumably at the outer edge of their range?
===========However, a Malaysia Airlines spokesperson said that the last conversation between the flight crew and air traffic control in Malaysia had been around 01:30, and stated that the plane had not disappeared from air traffic control systems in Subang until 02:40, which is long enough for the plane to have been flying across Vietnam =========== That would give Subang ATC the ability to track planes at a distance of 750 to 800 miles - well beyone what I've read is the typical distance for civillian ATC.
If the plane did fly an additional 100 to 125 miles beyond the last known radar contact, it would have entered the range of Ho Chi Minh ATC, yet there are no reports that it was ever detected by that radar.
So the bottom line is that the plane was commandeered (or was attempted to be commandeered) at a very strategic location in the gap in radar coverage between Kulala Lumpur and Ho Chi Minh. The plane either went down in that area (either with or without performing any controlled maneuvering) or it was successfully commandeered in that area and flown some distance on a south-east course (a hard right-hand turn from it's original direction) and was flown in the radar gap for 250 miles before turning back to the north-east and flown potentially 800 miles before being detected by Manila ATC or China ATC.
See also this:
http://www.n2yo.com/flight-mh370/
===========Flight MH370 - A possible location of the crash? Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 (MH370) is a missing international passenger flight operated by a Boeing 777-200ER aircraft with 227 passengers and 12 crew members on board. Flight 370 departed Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, at 00:41 on 8 March 2014 for a scheduled six-hour flight to Beijing, China. Reports indicate that Subang Air Traffic Control Centre lost contact with the plane at about 01:22, while it was over the Gulf of Thailand, and the plane was reported missing at 02:40. As of 9 March 07:00 UTC the location of the impact is still unknown.
However a scan of the latest Terra/MODIS satellite image reveals a dark band in the South China Sea, located approximately at 6.1N 104.6E. The picture has been taken at 03:35 UTC on 03/09/2014 with a resolution of 250 meters.
The full resolution satellite picture of the area can be downloaded here. The area of interest is indicated with a red circle.
http://www.n2yo.com/flight-mh370/mapfull.jpg
N2YO.com 9 March 2014, 3:40am EST =========== The red circle is just at the boundary of a 250-mile radar circle centered at Kuaka Lumpur, and 300 miles from Singapore. If the plane was returning or retracing it's flight path, and had reduced it's altitude to 10,000 feet or less, it's quite likely to have not been seen on radar in those cities.
But it would have been seen on radar (if there is a radar facility?) in Kota Baharu or Kuala Terengganu.
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On Monday, March 10, 2014 10:47:32 AM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:

That route appears to be inaccurate based on the actual flight paths that you can see for the same flight on days previous to the crash. Those planes flew over central Vietnam, going in over land near the tip of Vietnam, traveling over about the middle of it northward, then going out of water again just south of Da Nang, then proceeding over Hong Kong.

That possible crash point isn't the main area of focus or even one of the secondary ones. That site is where another commercial flight recently reported seeing some kind of large debris field. So, they are sending planes, ships, there to take a look. If it did crash there, then it was flying for a lot longer than when the data stream ended. And all they have is one siting of some kind of debris field, which as other sitings, may have nothing to do with the plane in question. If it did get there, how could it have done so without Vietnam ATC or military radar seeing it at all?

As I understand it, the "oil" has now been tested and it's not from a plane.

That radar contact for two hours was what the airline said for a day. But it's been since retracted, AFAIK. And if it were true, then the primary search area would not be in the area just 50 mins or so into the flight, when contact was really lost, ie the area about in the middle between Malaysia and Vietnam. Nor would there be any sense to what is going on now, with Malaysian military and ATC saying there is some evidence that the plane may have changed course, heading back where contact was lost 50 mins into the flight. That's why:
A - They've been searching primarily in the area between Malaysia and Vietnam.
B - Now based on the possibility that the plane turned back, they are extending the search across Malaysia and into a big area on the waters off the *west* coast of Malaysia.
If they had been in radar contact with the plane for two hours, not 50 mins, none of the above would make any sense. They would know where it went beyond where it was last seen, ie between Malaysia and Vietnam, ~50 mins into the flight.

Yes, which means the 2 hour radar contact BS that the airline was saying for a day or more was wrong.

Agree. Vietnam says it went missing about a minute before it would have entered their airspace.

Nobody has said there is a gap in radar coverage. And the Flightradar24 website which just uses simple receivers that receive the transponder info, ie speed, heading, altitude, etc track that same flight every day contiously across the water, into Vietnam, all the way to Hong Kong and beyond. Yet on MA370, the data ends in the waters between Malaysia and Vietnam, ie where the primary search area is.
The plane either went

Again, I haven't seen anyone say that there is a radar gap. And if there is, the transponder would have had to have been turned off or it would show up on Flightradar24, which is independent of radar. I agree that the two possibilities seem to be that it either went down between Malaysia and Vietnam following some major event that ended it's transponder, no mayday, etc. or that it could have been hijacked and the transponder turned off.
But if it's the latter, where did it go without being picked up by some radar as a blip? You'd think all that would have been analyzed by now. I'm kind of amazed that they are looking on the other side of Malaysia now. Even if the transponder is off, how could it wind up there without multiple evidence, ie ATC radar, military radar seeing it? We had to spend billions to make the B2 invisible. This a huge plane. On 911 the transponders were off, which added to the confusion, but ATC continued to track them.

The red circle is in the main area of search focus, ie near where the last contact was. IDK why you would think a plane that close to the Malasian cost would not be seen at 10,000 ft. Or why it would not have been seen constantly as it descended, whatever. But that area is certainly where debris could be from the sudden loss of the plane at it's last known position.
I'd say I'd put the probability at 90% that it crashed where the radar and transponder data suddenly ended. That's because Vietnam has that picture of what sure looks exactly like an aircraft door. Right shape, white, looks like a window in the middle. Can't judge the size. Which is why I think it was just unbelievably stupid to not keep that plane on it, get another plane there if necessary, a helicopter, boats there immediately. The US had a cruiser on the way for a day or more with helicopters, don't know where exactly it was at the time. Instead it was late afternoon, the plane returned to base and they didn't look for it again until the next morning. Now they can't find it. At the very least they should have gotten good, closeup pics that with fore nsics it could be determined with high confidence that it's a 777 door.

I don't know about radar, but the flightradar24 system has a receiver at KB. Their system routinely maintains contact with that flight via receivers at Kuala Lumpur, Penang, and KB. And then it's picked up by a receiver in Vietnam. Continous contact all the way. Based on that, I'd say it either went down where the data ends in the area between Malaysia and Vietnam, or someone turned off the transponder.
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the time for the universal secure ID is just around the corner.
every single human being would get a DNA test, fingerprints, a ID chip inserted in the hand, retinal scan, photos, a universal ID card, a tracking device. Plus more things to keep us secure......
DNA on file would make crimefighting much easier....
to fly, travel, get a job, get a drivers license, and everything else....... even using credit or debit cards, just put your hand there.....
No more need to carry cards;)
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On 3/10/2014 8:42 PM, bob haller wrote:

You know, to sell it to the masses, you need a catchy name. Say how it keeps the beast in man under control, so some thing like, how about "Mark of the beast"? Yeah, that's it!
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Obviously all commercial airliners and perhaps all aircraft need to send a signal to satellites in real time, providing cockpit conversation, gps loca tion and engineering details. some videos of cockpit, passenger compartment , views out windows and looking back at the vehicle.....
would make solving mysteries so much easier..
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<Obviously all commercial airliners and perhaps all aircraft need to send a signal to satellites in real time, providing cockpit conversation, gps location and engineering details. some videos of cockpit, passenger compartment, views out windows and looking back at the vehicle.....>
I've read that such a system would cost $300M *per* airline to implement. Satellite air time isn't cheap and more would have to be launched to handle that kind of data load. If MH370 is never found - a remote but not non-existent possibility, we may end up going to such a system because humans hate unsolved mysteries. But I don't see it happening unless a lot more planes are hijacked in a similar manner. For a plane that large to go undiscovered for so long is really an anomaly.
There's an excellent article here that discusses why even the satellite approach is dubious:
< http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/03/why-malaysia-airlines-370-remains-so- profoundly-mysterious-and-why-a-better-black-box-wouldnt-help/284407/> <<I'm quoting his message in full detail, since in cases like this the details matter. If you don't want to deal with all the specifics, his main point is: the disappearance of this airplane remains profoundly mysterious, and would probably remain so even if one much-discussed "remedy" had been in place. I turn the floor over to Mr. Planey: Would realtime streaming of black box data end the mystery of what happened to MH370? Probably not. Here's why.
As the search for Malaysia Airlines flight 370 continues in earnest, many have called for the implementation of realtime streaming of black-box data. It is an understandable reaction to an inexplicable event: that a modern airliner could simply vanish without a trace. The thinking is that real-time black-box data would make it possible to locate the aircraft more quickly; to understand what had happened to the aircraft causing it to lose contact with air traffic control; to perhaps prevent an aircraft safety incident through monitoring of aircraft systems and highlighting suspect or anomalous data. But is that really the case with this aircraft and this flight? Unfortunately, I suspect not . . .
Given that the Boeing 777-200 aircraft on this flight had been recently inspected and operated without incident over the prior ten days, there are no red flags leading to a likely cause of the disappearance. Even though this aircraft was equipped with an ACARS system like the Air France flight, no relevant data transmissions were made. This reasonably points to a thoroughly unforeseen, catastrophic event (such as TWA Flight 800) or perhaps a deliberate action such as hijacking, terrorist action or even flight crew suicide.
In the case of the immediate, catastrophic event, data streaming would likely cease at the moment of the event. Either a complete loss of electrical power would disrupt the data stream or a mechanical break in the aircraft systems would prevent data transmission. Further, if an aircraft was in an out-of-control attitude such as a steep dive, a spin or a hard roll, maintaining a direct link with a satellite would be nearly impossible, thus again breaking the data stream and rendering the system incapable.>>
-- Bobby G.
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But it would be known when/where the incident took place.
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